@Geri I admire pacifists but isn’t WW2 a rather obvious counter-example?

@mkoek @Geri Even if you take (West) Germany as the best case outcome for WWII (& many, many other countries did not end up as democracies after the war) it wasn't achieved by "bombing them to democracy" but by a full-scale occupation and many years of nation-building and establishing democratic institutions and norms.

@mkoek @Geri There's a HUGE gap between doctrinaire pacifism and not needlessly starting a war to distract attention from allegations of child rape (as Trump is so blatantly doing).

@mkoek @Geri WW2 is rather a supporting example:

- it wasn’t a case of a one-sided bombing
- it finished exhausting multiple European empires into eventual collapses
- it established a framework for neo-imperial development in US and China
- it reinforced Russian imperialism and sacrificed Eastern Europe to the idea
- flawed democracies that arose did so out of ambers that exhausted empires were already suppressing

And finally, all of that is a gross oversimplification.

@mkoek @Geri

Mark

1. the 20th and 21st century is littered with even more counter-counter-examples

2. why doesn't the west just stay the f**k out of our* countries ?

(* my heritage is from that part of the world, my family suffered British colonialism)

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I notice you're from the Netherlands. A Dutch (ex?) diplomat was caught recently trying to smuggle starlinks and other devices into Iran.

Again - stop fu**king interfering with our affairs.

@alx @Geri Depends on how high you get your hopes up. Best to choose the best alternative, in my view.

@mkoek @Geri

eg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FftPblsMT7k

@charlesdelavalleepoussin @mkoek

my position here is I relay public utterance as a historian and record all

I can see the glib nature in Zack's words just as much as the humanitarian of them

In the round of his other sayings, you can tell he is working pro bono

Xx

@slotos @Geri not sure what you mean by one-sided; surely you’re not saying the Iranian regime is innocent of attacking others

@mkoek @Geri I would like to believe that the phrase you’re commenting on cannot be construed to be a guilt attribution by any reasonable person.

@kittylyst that's true, but unfortunately the destruction with countless bombs was necessary first.

I'm forever grateful for the way all that had turned out, I am from the generation that had the best world to grow up in (born in the early 70ies) and it was all thanks to the allies establishing West Germany.

And as we know, history doesn't repeat itself literally, so I don't know what will come of the terrible state everything is in now.

@mkoek @Geri

@Geri

If this was true, #WW2 would have a different ending for #Japan and #Germany who were bombed into democracy.

#War is a fixed process in humanity for over 5000 years.
The only thing that changes is the technology.