my code has started (and ended) romantic relationships, changed how people view the world around them, and brought people bits of otherwise unachievable joy
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my code has started (and ended) romantic relationships, changed how people view the world around them, and brought people bits of otherwise unachievable joy
it is embarrassing to tell on yourself that you can't do the same, but it is downright ignorant to claim it cannot or shouldn't be done at all
Matthew Garrett (@mjg59@nondeterministic.computer)
When I write code I am turning a creative idea into a mechanical embodiment of that idea. I am not creating beauty. Every line of code I write is a copy of another line of code I've read somewhere before, lightly modified to meet my needs. My code is not intended to evoke emotion. It does not change people think about the world. The idea→code pipeline in my head is not obviously distinguishable from the prompt->code process in an LLM
Nondeterministic Computer (nondeterministic.computer)
> The idea→code pipeline in my head is not obviously distinguishable from the prompt->code process in an LLM
Frankly speaking, we can tell. It’s gratingly obvious when a code is written to just do something without any attempt to tell a story.
As an aside, the experience that contributed the most to quality of my work was an attempt to help edit a my little pony fanfic.
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> The idea→code pipeline in my head is not obviously distinguishable from the prompt->code process in an LLM
Frankly speaking, we can tell. It’s gratingly obvious when a code is written to just do something without any attempt to tell a story.
As an aside, the experience that contributed the most to quality of my work was an attempt to help edit a my little pony fanfic.
@slotos i gotta hear the mlp story!
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my code has started (and ended) romantic relationships, changed how people view the world around them, and brought people bits of otherwise unachievable joy
it is embarrassing to tell on yourself that you can't do the same, but it is downright ignorant to claim it cannot or shouldn't be done at all
Matthew Garrett (@mjg59@nondeterministic.computer)
When I write code I am turning a creative idea into a mechanical embodiment of that idea. I am not creating beauty. Every line of code I write is a copy of another line of code I've read somewhere before, lightly modified to meet my needs. My code is not intended to evoke emotion. It does not change people think about the world. The idea→code pipeline in my head is not obviously distinguishable from the prompt->code process in an LLM
Nondeterministic Computer (nondeterministic.computer)
"Skill without imagination is craftsmanship and gives us many useful objects such as wickerwork picnic baskets."
Tom Stoppard, via Civilization VI.
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my code has started (and ended) romantic relationships, changed how people view the world around them, and brought people bits of otherwise unachievable joy
it is embarrassing to tell on yourself that you can't do the same, but it is downright ignorant to claim it cannot or shouldn't be done at all
Matthew Garrett (@mjg59@nondeterministic.computer)
When I write code I am turning a creative idea into a mechanical embodiment of that idea. I am not creating beauty. Every line of code I write is a copy of another line of code I've read somewhere before, lightly modified to meet my needs. My code is not intended to evoke emotion. It does not change people think about the world. The idea→code pipeline in my head is not obviously distinguishable from the prompt->code process in an LLM
Nondeterministic Computer (nondeterministic.computer)
@whitequark what kind of code breaks relationships
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@whitequark what kind of code breaks relationships
@kubukoz it wasn't a direct cause but it was very much a critical part
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my code has started (and ended) romantic relationships, changed how people view the world around them, and brought people bits of otherwise unachievable joy
it is embarrassing to tell on yourself that you can't do the same, but it is downright ignorant to claim it cannot or shouldn't be done at all
Matthew Garrett (@mjg59@nondeterministic.computer)
When I write code I am turning a creative idea into a mechanical embodiment of that idea. I am not creating beauty. Every line of code I write is a copy of another line of code I've read somewhere before, lightly modified to meet my needs. My code is not intended to evoke emotion. It does not change people think about the world. The idea→code pipeline in my head is not obviously distinguishable from the prompt->code process in an LLM
Nondeterministic Computer (nondeterministic.computer)
@whitequark It's endlessly funny to me that one of the ~three arguments every booster pulls out eventually is "well, I don't know about you, but *I* don't have a rich inner world"
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my code has started (and ended) romantic relationships, changed how people view the world around them, and brought people bits of otherwise unachievable joy
it is embarrassing to tell on yourself that you can't do the same, but it is downright ignorant to claim it cannot or shouldn't be done at all
Matthew Garrett (@mjg59@nondeterministic.computer)
When I write code I am turning a creative idea into a mechanical embodiment of that idea. I am not creating beauty. Every line of code I write is a copy of another line of code I've read somewhere before, lightly modified to meet my needs. My code is not intended to evoke emotion. It does not change people think about the world. The idea→code pipeline in my head is not obviously distinguishable from the prompt->code process in an LLM
Nondeterministic Computer (nondeterministic.computer)
@whitequark (apologies for the long reply from a stranger, just…I’m so with you here)
Their argument is also…just straight up false.
Like, it’s been demonstrated time and time again that _linguistic_ ability is tied much more closely to “programming” ability than mathematic ability is.
This is _why_ it’s interesting that LLMs can write any code _at all_. Their ability to write code is an _emergent property_ of the model, likely stemming from the fact that computer languages are, at their core, fundamentally the same as human language.
….but as we all keep saying, writing code isn’t the hard part. Just like writing the sentences of a novel isn’t the hard part.
Neither code nor prose changes people’s lives because of the mechanisms we lay on the page or in the editor, and it’s here that your OP is sort of right. Sort of.
The magic of software comes from the unique and interesting ways those mechanisms interact. LLMs do not exhibit this kind of thinking or creativity because they _don’t think_. The day we get a deterministic compiler from natural language to machine code will be a _huge_ win for society. It’s just also no where close to being here in any sort of sustainable way.
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@kubukoz it wasn't a direct cause but it was very much a critical part
@whitequark
Was it your relationship, or unrelated third parties?
> "If you can't code like Whitequark I'm outta here!" -
@slotos i gotta hear the mlp story!
@whitequark It was a Fallout: Equestria fanfic. Although I failed midway - burned out due to external factors.
Still, it motivated me to learn about narration, how to discuss and reason about it, how to show without telling, and when to tell without worry.
A few years later, while debugging a convoluted execution chain, I realized the same rules applied to code, tests, and documentation. After all, if it’s useful, a human’s gonna read it sooner or later.
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@whitequark It was a Fallout: Equestria fanfic. Although I failed midway - burned out due to external factors.
Still, it motivated me to learn about narration, how to discuss and reason about it, how to show without telling, and when to tell without worry.
A few years later, while debugging a convoluted execution chain, I realized the same rules applied to code, tests, and documentation. After all, if it’s useful, a human’s gonna read it sooner or later.
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my code has started (and ended) romantic relationships, changed how people view the world around them, and brought people bits of otherwise unachievable joy
it is embarrassing to tell on yourself that you can't do the same, but it is downright ignorant to claim it cannot or shouldn't be done at all
Matthew Garrett (@mjg59@nondeterministic.computer)
When I write code I am turning a creative idea into a mechanical embodiment of that idea. I am not creating beauty. Every line of code I write is a copy of another line of code I've read somewhere before, lightly modified to meet my needs. My code is not intended to evoke emotion. It does not change people think about the world. The idea→code pipeline in my head is not obviously distinguishable from the prompt->code process in an LLM
Nondeterministic Computer (nondeterministic.computer)
@whitequark strange as it is to say, I’d never thought about this before. Among programmers our code is literally our craft, my code being called good when I was starting out is a memory I’ve still held onto, I’ve had the dynamics of interactions with colleagues change over how to organise code in java.
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my code has started (and ended) romantic relationships, changed how people view the world around them, and brought people bits of otherwise unachievable joy
it is embarrassing to tell on yourself that you can't do the same, but it is downright ignorant to claim it cannot or shouldn't be done at all
Matthew Garrett (@mjg59@nondeterministic.computer)
When I write code I am turning a creative idea into a mechanical embodiment of that idea. I am not creating beauty. Every line of code I write is a copy of another line of code I've read somewhere before, lightly modified to meet my needs. My code is not intended to evoke emotion. It does not change people think about the world. The idea→code pipeline in my head is not obviously distinguishable from the prompt->code process in an LLM
Nondeterministic Computer (nondeterministic.computer)
@whitequark Wow, that post is epically sad in a most spectacular way.
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my code has started (and ended) romantic relationships, changed how people view the world around them, and brought people bits of otherwise unachievable joy
it is embarrassing to tell on yourself that you can't do the same, but it is downright ignorant to claim it cannot or shouldn't be done at all
Matthew Garrett (@mjg59@nondeterministic.computer)
When I write code I am turning a creative idea into a mechanical embodiment of that idea. I am not creating beauty. Every line of code I write is a copy of another line of code I've read somewhere before, lightly modified to meet my needs. My code is not intended to evoke emotion. It does not change people think about the world. The idea→code pipeline in my head is not obviously distinguishable from the prompt->code process in an LLM
Nondeterministic Computer (nondeterministic.computer)
@whitequark
> "Every line of code I write is a copy of another line of code I've read somewhere before"Holy shit, what an incredible way to admit you're a talentless hack
My largest reason for eschewing LLMs is that the projects I am most proud of were the ones solving problems that no one had ever solved before. If it already existed, we would just use that!
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@whitequark I mean what mjg says i s very true for mjg's code. Thankfully most people aren't mjg
He clearly only focuses on the "technical merit" of the code not on the social and ecological impact of the LLM that generated it.As it stands today it's utterly unethical however "good" the code turns out to be on grounds of water and energy waste alone. <-- see one aspect only
- The code quality is not good enough
- The resource usage is abysmal
- The dumbing down effect on the users is verified.
Maybe that's not the "tech to set us free"
@mjg59 that's your answer. Your take stinks.
Edit: it's an understandable shitty position considering that the "AI" goldrush shuffelmaker NV is your current employer.
cuius enim panem manduco, carmina canto
@TheOneDoc There's a whole bunch of extremely legitimate reasons to push back on LLM usage, and I think the widespread adoption of them by industry is going to have a significant negative impact.
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@whitequark ugh, it sucks to see mjg fall down this hole
this whole take ignores other massive ethical issues with llms (resource usage, forcing datacenters onto communities, fascists pushing this tech, ...) and reduces it to just one issue, which i feel is dishonest at best
i know i keep hammering this point, but we should also stand in solidarity with other affected professions, like writers and artists, in completely banning this technology as a whole
this take also completely ignores many of the social aspects of software development
i want a more human world, and this genai bullshit goes against that@lumi @whitequark I know right, I used to think he was cool. What a shame
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@TheOneDoc There's a whole bunch of extremely legitimate reasons to push back on LLM usage, and I think the widespread adoption of them by industry is going to have a significant negative impact.
@mjg59 yet you work for the shovel maker...
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my code has started (and ended) romantic relationships, changed how people view the world around them, and brought people bits of otherwise unachievable joy
it is embarrassing to tell on yourself that you can't do the same, but it is downright ignorant to claim it cannot or shouldn't be done at all
Matthew Garrett (@mjg59@nondeterministic.computer)
When I write code I am turning a creative idea into a mechanical embodiment of that idea. I am not creating beauty. Every line of code I write is a copy of another line of code I've read somewhere before, lightly modified to meet my needs. My code is not intended to evoke emotion. It does not change people think about the world. The idea→code pipeline in my head is not obviously distinguishable from the prompt->code process in an LLM
Nondeterministic Computer (nondeterministic.computer)
@whitequark That’s some top-tier corporate-ghoul rhetoric.
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@whitequark
> "Every line of code I write is a copy of another line of code I've read somewhere before"Holy shit, what an incredible way to admit you're a talentless hack
My largest reason for eschewing LLMs is that the projects I am most proud of were the ones solving problems that no one had ever solved before. If it already existed, we would just use that!
@twipped @whitequark I'm nit angry, just disappointed at this shit take, because it's one thing to admit one sucks at coding and another one to consider the suckage a virtue.
- Really, #NotCool!
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@whitequark
> "Every line of code I write is a copy of another line of code I've read somewhere before"Holy shit, what an incredible way to admit you're a talentless hack
My largest reason for eschewing LLMs is that the projects I am most proud of were the ones solving problems that no one had ever solved before. If it already existed, we would just use that!
Wow, a unique algorithm is worth writing a paper for!
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