There is a lot to say about organising and resistance against AI and capitalism.
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@catileptic
The manifesto uses both terms indeed. Malte and I have been writing and giving talks on socialising platforms only in German (so far - changing soon I hope), and the term used there is "Vergesellschaftung".The objective is not centralised/state ownership, but democratic organisation where the relevant groups make decisions, not shareholders. The German initiative @dwenteignen is a very practical project to bring housing under democratic control: https://dwenteignen.de/en
@alineblankertz thank you for linking, i knew about the housing initiative ^^
i don't want to take up too much of your time, but, if you happen to have the energy, would you be willing to clarify just these 2 points:
1) who can initiate a "socialization" / who coordinates it? the government?
2) what does "expropriation" mean in the context of the manifesto and how does it differ from 'socialization"? -
@alineblankertz thank you for linking, i knew about the housing initiative ^^
i don't want to take up too much of your time, but, if you happen to have the energy, would you be willing to clarify just these 2 points:
1) who can initiate a "socialization" / who coordinates it? the government?
2) what does "expropriation" mean in the context of the manifesto and how does it differ from 'socialization"?@catileptic
Oh, I am very happy to discuss
1) How socialisation works is a legal and a social/political question. Re legal I mostly refer to @malteengeler
but there are also people who "socialise" stuff by taking it over directly and then figuring out the legal pathway, e.g. automotive workers in Florence (inspiring example!): https://www.tuc.org.uk/workplace-guidance/case-studies/gkn-workers-florence-fight-take-over-ownership-their-factory-andHaving a government on your side certainly makes things easier, but we see with DWE that following legal procedures is not sufficient.
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@catileptic
Oh, I am very happy to discuss 1) How socialisation works is a legal and a social/political question. Re legal I mostly refer to @malteengeler
but there are also people who "socialise" stuff by taking it over directly and then figuring out the legal pathway, e.g. automotive workers in Florence (inspiring example!): https://www.tuc.org.uk/workplace-guidance/case-studies/gkn-workers-florence-fight-take-over-ownership-their-factory-andHaving a government on your side certainly makes things easier, but we see with DWE that following legal procedures is not sufficient.
@catileptic
2) The difference between expropriation and socialisation is nuanced. We used both terms because we think that both are good approaches for slightly different, but overlapping domains.You can expropriate tech billionaires and that is certainly a useful step - you cannot socialise them, only their wealth
For digital infrastructure, expropriation can be a step towards socialisation (depending on the legal regime etc.). Either way, we want democratic control. -
@catileptic
2) The difference between expropriation and socialisation is nuanced. We used both terms because we think that both are good approaches for slightly different, but overlapping domains.You can expropriate tech billionaires and that is certainly a useful step - you cannot socialise them, only their wealth
For digital infrastructure, expropriation can be a step towards socialisation (depending on the legal regime etc.). Either way, we want democratic control.i will refer to the "we" that you used, i don't know who it refers to, but when i say "you", below, i mean it in the plural.
socialization would then be a process initiated by those who want to take over a private entity? but expropriation is a legal proceeding, from what i know. how do you envision who has the authority to decide which private entities (persons or companies) are "expropriated"?
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i will refer to the "we" that you used, i don't know who it refers to, but when i say "you", below, i mean it in the plural.
socialization would then be a process initiated by those who want to take over a private entity? but expropriation is a legal proceeding, from what i know. how do you envision who has the authority to decide which private entities (persons or companies) are "expropriated"?
@catileptic @alineblankertz The decision to expropriate and socialise is a democratic and legal one. It happens quite often already, e.g. when private land gets turned into highways or a minings ground for fossil fuel corporations. Socialisation is nothing unusual in most capitalist parliamentary societies. It usually happens in the interest of corporations though. Aline and and hope to popularise socialisation as a strategic tool for a leftist/progressive digital movements.
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@catileptic @alineblankertz The decision to expropriate and socialise is a democratic and legal one. It happens quite often already, e.g. when private land gets turned into highways or a minings ground for fossil fuel corporations. Socialisation is nothing unusual in most capitalist parliamentary societies. It usually happens in the interest of corporations though. Aline and and hope to popularise socialisation as a strategic tool for a leftist/progressive digital movements.
@malteengeler @alineblankertz sorry, just to be clear: i've never said anything about whether socialization / expropriation is a good or bad idea
i understand the "why" behind it. thank you for taking the time to really go into detail, i appreciate it, but this isn't what i'm curious about what i'm trying to understand is exactly what i asked. what is the authority / entity that initiates and orchestrates expropriation / socialization, in this vision?
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@malteengeler @alineblankertz sorry, just to be clear: i've never said anything about whether socialization / expropriation is a good or bad idea
i understand the "why" behind it. thank you for taking the time to really go into detail, i appreciate it, but this isn't what i'm curious about what i'm trying to understand is exactly what i asked. what is the authority / entity that initiates and orchestrates expropriation / socialization, in this vision?
and if these questions on the fediverse feel in any way unpleasant or inappropriate, not engaging with them is a response i'm very willing to accept
i really don't want to make anyone's day feel more tense -
@malteengeler @alineblankertz sorry, just to be clear: i've never said anything about whether socialization / expropriation is a good or bad idea
i understand the "why" behind it. thank you for taking the time to really go into detail, i appreciate it, but this isn't what i'm curious about what i'm trying to understand is exactly what i asked. what is the authority / entity that initiates and orchestrates expropriation / socialization, in this vision?
@catileptic @alineblankertz It depends on the specific case but usually the initiating body is some form of democratically legitimised council/gathering/group. In some cases it could be initiated via a referendum and enacted by parliamentary law. In others it might be a communal body who enacts the decision via executive orders. Or it might be a self-governing community that enacts a consensus within their group. It really depends on the situation.
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@catileptic @alineblankertz It depends on the specific case but usually the initiating body is some form of democratically legitimised council/gathering/group. In some cases it could be initiated via a referendum and enacted by parliamentary law. In others it might be a communal body who enacts the decision via executive orders. Or it might be a self-governing community that enacts a consensus within their group. It really depends on the situation.
@malteengeler thank you for going into more detail on this, i really appreciate it
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i will refer to the "we" that you used, i don't know who it refers to, but when i say "you", below, i mean it in the plural.
socialization would then be a process initiated by those who want to take over a private entity? but expropriation is a legal proceeding, from what i know. how do you envision who has the authority to decide which private entities (persons or companies) are "expropriated"?
@catileptic
To be specific, there are two "we": first, the conference organising group who supports the manifesto and includes various movements.The manifesto is not prescriptive about who should initiate an expropriation and socialisation. I cannot speak on behalf of the group; but for our purposes, we do not need a very specific plan, at least not at this stage. We agree that achieving democratic control through the listed means is desirable and we support groups working in that direction.
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@catileptic
To be specific, there are two "we": first, the conference organising group who supports the manifesto and includes various movements.The manifesto is not prescriptive about who should initiate an expropriation and socialisation. I cannot speak on behalf of the group; but for our purposes, we do not need a very specific plan, at least not at this stage. We agree that achieving democratic control through the listed means is desirable and we support groups working in that direction.
@catileptic
The other "we" is @malteengeler and I who will talk about socialising platforms at the conference.Re socialisation in general, there are also direct-action related approaches like squatting that, as I said, sometimes trigger legal procedures leading to some form of democratisation.
But I do not consider those an option for digital platforms and infrastructures. As @malteengeler explained, relying on legal/parliamentary procedures seems to be the most suitable approach.
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