I'm mad about linux distros again today and I think I am realizing why this is so hard for me to write about systemically: I have a software engineer brain and so I try to model the various problems as technical problems.
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@matt @cthos @miss_rodent I have never seen an app do this in a way which appeared to work. my experience is limited though. glad to hear it at least exists though!
@glyph i had to look up what a powerbox was, but flatpak is built around the concept and wouldnt work without a functioning xdg file chooser that lives in the baseos outside the flatpak. Ive never had a problem with it, but ive only used flatpak on GNOME on Fedora, Silverblue and Bazzite, where its a first class citizen and well integrated. Flatpak can only be a universal app packaging runtime if it actually works on all the desktop systems without fuss and drama.
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Fixing the problem involves driving a truck through that load-bearing "to some extent". Doing a big ugly multi-party negotiation to figure out how we can EOL Qt, to replace it with Gtk everywhere, and get all the Gtk devs on board with being *extremely* nice to the Qt people as we sunset their work. (Did you feel a little thrill because I picked Gtk instead of Qt? Well, I flipped a coin. Imagine I said Qt wins instead of Gtk. You're gonna be that mad about *big* parts of this, no matter what.)
@glyph there are problems, but I don't see the redundant efforts of various duplicated components as a core issue.
A lot of Linux is about avoiding monoculture. vim *and* emacs. Snap *and* flatpack.
It's something that emerges naturally from people trying to create a hackable platform.I think we'd be better off if people shared ideas and infrastructure without denigrating one another's work. We should have both Qt and Gtk so that they can cross pollinate.
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@glyph there are problems, but I don't see the redundant efforts of various duplicated components as a core issue.
A lot of Linux is about avoiding monoculture. vim *and* emacs. Snap *and* flatpack.
It's something that emerges naturally from people trying to create a hackable platform.I think we'd be better off if people shared ideas and infrastructure without denigrating one another's work. We should have both Qt and Gtk so that they can cross pollinate.
@glyph To be clear, I agree with your complaint, as I read it. It's the twofold
- you aren't providing something non-developers can use
- you aren't providing something developers can easily targetCanonical is trying to make Ubuntu the desktop distro. And tons of software ships as .debs, whether or not that's really the best choice.
The wild English garden of Linux can continue to exist, alongside a TiVo-ized, consumer oriented Ubuntu. But if you lose the anarchy, it's not Linux.
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@glyph Honestly, I think that is a reason to move further in the other direction, and become more diverse and hostile to corporate interests.
I think consolidating and trying to act more like the commercial-capitalist OSes is an ethical and social failure; the diversity and chaotic aspect of the ecosystem are a functional pillar of the community.
@miss_rodent @glyph and the more diverse and messy things get, the less time and energy will be put into making accessibility actually good, because it'll be reinvented a thousand times
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@miss_rodent @glyph and the more diverse and messy things get, the less time and energy will be put into making accessibility actually good, because it'll be reinvented a thousand times
@freya @glyph It's not like the corporate consolidated model has made accessibility a major priority either?
In my own case, linux & BSDs have been more accessible than the proprietary OSes since I switched in the 00's.
I've known folks with other disabilities who prefer(ed) linux's accessibility options, but, that seems to vary quite a bit by person & disability.
It's definitely not great as-is, but, won't necessarily get worse or stop improving from more diversity and options existing. -
@freya @glyph It's not like the corporate consolidated model has made accessibility a major priority either?
In my own case, linux & BSDs have been more accessible than the proprietary OSes since I switched in the 00's.
I've known folks with other disabilities who prefer(ed) linux's accessibility options, but, that seems to vary quite a bit by person & disability.
It's definitely not great as-is, but, won't necessarily get worse or stop improving from more diversity and options existing.@freya @glyph To Clarify: My own case mainly being that my paws don't work very well - and have only gotten worse over time, I routinely can't use a mouse effectively, so being able to do basically everything from a command line, customize keyboard shortcuts & remap the keyboard easily, change settings in a text file instead of needing to navigate menus, etc. are all significant accessibility concerns on my end.
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@glyph @miss_rodent I mean, I regularly come across Flatpak wrappers around software that the maintainers did not themselves package that also just works and is maintained by one person occasinally running a CI script though so I don't think this is necessarily true for all applications.
Also RE: filesystem permissions, it's now extremely rare that I have to fire up flatseal and make any changes at all for my normal software.
@cthos @glyph @miss_rodent I very much don't want to run applications packaged by Some Random Person In Kansas. I make a deliberate effort to avoid them! I want to run applications packaged by the author/ISV or, failing that, by a team that I can have some trust in to do work of a certain standard. A distribution maintainer team would be the paradigm example of the latter. The 'Snapcrafters' model is maybe borderline.
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@cthos @glyph @miss_rodent I very much don't want to run applications packaged by Some Random Person In Kansas. I make a deliberate effort to avoid them! I want to run applications packaged by the author/ISV or, failing that, by a team that I can have some trust in to do work of a certain standard. A distribution maintainer team would be the paradigm example of the latter. The 'Snapcrafters' model is maybe borderline.
@willegible @glyph @miss_rodent the point was about the level of effort, not about the βwhoβ
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@willegible @glyph @miss_rodent the point was about the level of effort, not about the βwhoβ
@cthos Ah, right. Fair enough!
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@freya @glyph To Clarify: My own case mainly being that my paws don't work very well - and have only gotten worse over time, I routinely can't use a mouse effectively, so being able to do basically everything from a command line, customize keyboard shortcuts & remap the keyboard easily, change settings in a text file instead of needing to navigate menus, etc. are all significant accessibility concerns on my end.
@miss_rodent @glyph yeah, and for that it works great. unfortunately if you use a screenreader, it's somewhere between a trashfire and a disaster
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In short, all the volunteer-based distributions need to have a gigantic conference where they all come together and *agree to stop working on about 99% of them*, to pool efforts to make a real Linux platform. A lot of people will need to put their egos aside and decide to acquiesce to solutions they believe to be technically inferior, in order to be able to address the diffusion of labor into pointlessly recreating basically the same toolchain a thousand times.
@glyph Sorry but this won't work. Some requirements are incompatible with each other.
There are distros that runs with a read-only rootfs from a CD and distros with daily upgrades. There are distros for 128 Go servers and distros for 64 Mo wifi routers. There are distros for machines that constantly sleep to preserve batteries and distros for servers with UPS that shall never go down. There are hardened distros and tinkerer-friendly distros. There are privacy-preserving distros, corporate-friendly remotely-managed distros and no-administration auto-upgrading distros. There are move-fast-break-compatibility distros and distros backward compatible with 10 years old software.
If you don't account for all of them then your unified solution will not gain broad adoption. -
@miss_rodent @glyph yeah, and for that it works great. unfortunately if you use a screenreader, it's somewhere between a trashfire and a disaster
@freya @miss_rodent the corporate consolidation model *has* made accessibility a priority because there's legislation about it in the US. It doesn't accommodate every disability, but the majority are better accommodated by corporate OSes because if you want business with the US federal government (or indeed to be used in an office at all) you need to follow the Americans with Disabilities Act. To the extent that Linux can comply with this, it's because of big corporate efforts.
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@freya @miss_rodent the corporate consolidation model *has* made accessibility a priority because there's legislation about it in the US. It doesn't accommodate every disability, but the majority are better accommodated by corporate OSes because if you want business with the US federal government (or indeed to be used in an office at all) you need to follow the Americans with Disabilities Act. To the extent that Linux can comply with this, it's because of big corporate efforts.
@glyph @miss_rodent it's because of Sun. 99% of the accessibility that exists in Linux exists because of Sun in the 2000s, and not even directly for Linux, it's all Solaris-originated afaik
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@freya @miss_rodent the corporate consolidation model *has* made accessibility a priority because there's legislation about it in the US. It doesn't accommodate every disability, but the majority are better accommodated by corporate OSes because if you want business with the US federal government (or indeed to be used in an office at all) you need to follow the Americans with Disabilities Act. To the extent that Linux can comply with this, it's because of big corporate efforts.
@freya @miss_rodent this is of course not much of a consolation if *your* specific disability is not particularly accommodated well, or if you have organically created your own accommodation which works well on BSD or Linux but cannot be ported over to a different OS. A lot of folks with accessibility needs are experiencing that right now even within Linux, on Wayland. But just by the numbers, the corporate OSes work a lot better. c.f. this mess https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/s1twza/the_state_of_funding_accessibility_development/
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@glyph @miss_rodent it's because of Sun. 99% of the accessibility that exists in Linux exists because of Sun in the 2000s, and not even directly for Linux, it's all Solaris-originated afaik
@freya @miss_rodent yeah and it's all gradually breaking now that the foundational technologies are being updated
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@glyph Sorry but this won't work. Some requirements are incompatible with each other.
There are distros that runs with a read-only rootfs from a CD and distros with daily upgrades. There are distros for 128 Go servers and distros for 64 Mo wifi routers. There are distros for machines that constantly sleep to preserve batteries and distros for servers with UPS that shall never go down. There are hardened distros and tinkerer-friendly distros. There are privacy-preserving distros, corporate-friendly remotely-managed distros and no-administration auto-upgrading distros. There are move-fast-break-compatibility distros and distros backward compatible with 10 years old software.
If you don't account for all of them then your unified solution will not gain broad adoption.@gantua yeah it's gonna have to be a really long conference
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@freya @miss_rodent yeah and it's all gradually breaking now that the foundational technologies are being updated
@glyph @miss_rodent I have a Solaris 10 SPARC machine, and right now it in the default configuration, an OS from 2005, hardware from 2002? it's going to have better accessibility than absolutely any modern Linux, evr
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@freya @miss_rodent yeah and it's all gradually breaking now that the foundational technologies are being updated
@freya @miss_rodent I think that IBM did a bunch of stuff at one point? And Red Hat was involved? I remember a big multiparty funding effort for GNOME. Maybe that was just all the same Sun work and I'm misremembering though, I guess Solaris did have the GNOME desktop at one point too.
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@freya @miss_rodent I think that IBM did a bunch of stuff at one point? And Red Hat was involved? I remember a big multiparty funding effort for GNOME. Maybe that was just all the same Sun work and I'm misremembering though, I guess Solaris did have the GNOME desktop at one point too.
@glyph @miss_rodent oh yeah you're right, IBM had AIX they were pushing, Red Hat had............. Red Hat.
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@freya @miss_rodent I think that IBM did a bunch of stuff at one point? And Red Hat was involved? I remember a big multiparty funding effort for GNOME. Maybe that was just all the same Sun work and I'm misremembering though, I guess Solaris did have the GNOME desktop at one point too.
@glyph @miss_rodent HP was probably involved too, what with HP-UX
