"Should BC require every internet user's privacy to be invaded?" would be a more accurate headline here, CBC.
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Hey @Paulatics and @pluralistic here's a framing you might appreciate and be able to use:
Imagine if it were a jailable offense to smoke as a minor, instead of being illegal to sell a minor a pack of cigarettes!
to compare age verification against platform regulation.
@datum @Paulatics @pluralistic simple solution, strangers can mind their own business
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"Should BC require every internet user's privacy to be invaded?" would be a more accurate headline here, CBC.
And if they implement it, the next article will be "In an attempt to regulate social media and AI for youth, the BC Government broke the internet for many citizens, but not youth, who easily worked around the ban with VMs and VPNs."
@OpenMediaOrg this is a stinker here
It's getting really easy to identify the Koch-backed Fraser Institute's influence peddling.
The fossil fuel industry is desperate to keep youth ignorant of the future they face.
Censorship is the perennial go-to for fossil fuel funded fascists.
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Hey @Paulatics and @pluralistic here's a framing you might appreciate and be able to use:
Imagine if it were a jailable offense to smoke as a minor, instead of being illegal to sell a minor a pack of cigarettes!
to compare age verification against platform regulation.
@datum @Paulatics @pluralistic This is not a good argument for making the case against age verification in the OS. We’ve all accepted that you need to show ID when purchasing alcohol or cigarettes. Proponents of age-based verification can simply point to this existing rule and say it’s being updated for the digital age.
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@datum @OpenMediaOrg @cbcnews Age Recognition? As adults we should hand over all our privacy over to social media companies because they’ve proven themselves to be unreliable and self-serving?
Do the hard work and regulate the villain, not the victims
Revealed: 50 million Facebook profiles harvested for Cambridge Analytica in major data breach
Whistleblower describes how firm linked to former Trump adviser Steve Bannon compiled user data to target American voters
the Guardian (www.theguardian.com)
@datum @OpenMediaOrg @cbcnews Regulation of social media where the villains holds all the cards and has many sleeves ..
Regulating social media will be extraordinarily difficult as the social media companies have absolute control over what is being regulated.
Will legislators have the wisdom and courage to withhold access to the social media market independent of the media companies. Which politicians will confuse zero knowledge proofs with the willful ignorance many rely upon?
Effective age verification is a zero knowledge proof problem, confirming something is true without revealing what it is. Which of our politicians are willing to take on a difficult thinking problem?
Meta, owner of the two social media platforms, feared Japan would soon force it to verify the identity of all its advertisers, internal documents reviewed by Reuters show. The step would likely reduce fraud but also cost the company revenue.
To head off that threat, Meta launched an enforcement blitz to reduce the volume of offending ads. But it also sought to make problematic ads less “discoverable” for Japanese regulators, the documents show. -
@datum @Paulatics @pluralistic This is not a good argument for making the case against age verification in the OS. We’ve all accepted that you need to show ID when purchasing alcohol or cigarettes. Proponents of age-based verification can simply point to this existing rule and say it’s being updated for the digital age.
@dgregor79 @Paulatics @pluralistic
We’ve all accepted that you need to show ID when purchasing alcohol or cigarettes. Proponents of age-based verification can simply point to this existing rule and say it’s being updated for the digital age.
Excellent point, but I think there are two differences.
1️⃣ the OS is no more responsible for what you do in it, than the sidewalk is responsible for who walks across it into the shop. The OS is not the purveyor of the harmful substance.
2️⃣ there's a huge gap between "show ID" and "have your identity recorded" - it's currently illegal, if I understand right, to photocopy someone's ID when carding them, for example
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@datum @Paulatics @pluralistic This is not a good argument for making the case against age verification in the OS. We’ve all accepted that you need to show ID when purchasing alcohol or cigarettes. Proponents of age-based verification can simply point to this existing rule and say it’s being updated for the digital age.
@dgregor79 oh also - thank you for hammering on the notion, it does no good to popularize bad ideas!!!
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@datum @OpenMediaOrg @cbcnews Regulation of social media where the villains holds all the cards and has many sleeves ..
Regulating social media will be extraordinarily difficult as the social media companies have absolute control over what is being regulated.
Will legislators have the wisdom and courage to withhold access to the social media market independent of the media companies. Which politicians will confuse zero knowledge proofs with the willful ignorance many rely upon?
Effective age verification is a zero knowledge proof problem, confirming something is true without revealing what it is. Which of our politicians are willing to take on a difficult thinking problem?
Meta, owner of the two social media platforms, feared Japan would soon force it to verify the identity of all its advertisers, internal documents reviewed by Reuters show. The step would likely reduce fraud but also cost the company revenue.
To head off that threat, Meta launched an enforcement blitz to reduce the volume of offending ads. But it also sought to make problematic ads less “discoverable” for Japanese regulators, the documents show.@pinhman Fascinating link. Definitely parallels how social media companies are trying to push age verification laws to shield themselves from the harm caused by their products in the style of "It's not our fault the kids are smoking! We put warning labels on the packets!"
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@dgregor79 @Paulatics @pluralistic
We’ve all accepted that you need to show ID when purchasing alcohol or cigarettes. Proponents of age-based verification can simply point to this existing rule and say it’s being updated for the digital age.
Excellent point, but I think there are two differences.
1️⃣ the OS is no more responsible for what you do in it, than the sidewalk is responsible for who walks across it into the shop. The OS is not the purveyor of the harmful substance.
2️⃣ there's a huge gap between "show ID" and "have your identity recorded" - it's currently illegal, if I understand right, to photocopy someone's ID when carding them, for example
@datum @dgregor79 @Paulatics @pluralistic
Yea I mean can you imagine how mad people would be if it turned out the bar they went to recorded all the info on their drivers license and then sold that along with a record of their behavior at the bar to the highest bidder?
We’ve gotten so numbed to how weird this whole thing is.
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@dgregor79 @Paulatics @pluralistic
We’ve all accepted that you need to show ID when purchasing alcohol or cigarettes. Proponents of age-based verification can simply point to this existing rule and say it’s being updated for the digital age.
Excellent point, but I think there are two differences.
1️⃣ the OS is no more responsible for what you do in it, than the sidewalk is responsible for who walks across it into the shop. The OS is not the purveyor of the harmful substance.
2️⃣ there's a huge gap between "show ID" and "have your identity recorded" - it's currently illegal, if I understand right, to photocopy someone's ID when carding them, for example
@datum @dgregor79 @Paulatics @pluralistic
> it's currently illegal, if I understand right, to photocopy someone's ID when carding them
Really? Where? There are now two grocery stores in WA state where I will no longer buy beer because they insist on photo-scanning my ID. (No law requires they do this.)
You should have seen my face when they told me it wasn't stored anywhere.
BTW? I'm nearly 70. Lots of places don't even ID me to begin with.
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@datum @dgregor79 @Paulatics @pluralistic
> it's currently illegal, if I understand right, to photocopy someone's ID when carding them
Really? Where? There are now two grocery stores in WA state where I will no longer buy beer because they insist on photo-scanning my ID. (No law requires they do this.)
You should have seen my face when they told me it wasn't stored anywhere.
BTW? I'm nearly 70. Lots of places don't even ID me to begin with.
@jackwilliambell @datum @dgregor79 @Paulatics @pluralistic I think that most places in my country err on the side of caution by checking age for certain items and places (pubs, bars, nightclubs) by saying 'If you look under 25, we will ask you to prove you are 18 or over'. My son was asked once to prove he was 18, on his 18th birthday! But I have never known a place here do more than check the relevant details.
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@datum @dgregor79 @Paulatics @pluralistic
Yea I mean can you imagine how mad people would be if it turned out the bar they went to recorded all the info on their drivers license and then sold that along with a record of their behavior at the bar to the highest bidder?
We’ve gotten so numbed to how weird this whole thing is.
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@datum @dgregor79 @Paulatics @pluralistic
Yea I mean can you imagine how mad people would be if it turned out the bar they went to recorded all the info on their drivers license and then sold that along with a record of their behavior at the bar to the highest bidder?
We’ve gotten so numbed to how weird this whole thing is.
@minmi @datum @dgregor79 @Paulatics @pluralistic expect the behavior would be more like a reverse auction. They sell it to every bidder at the highest value they are willing to pay.
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@datum yuuuuuuuuck
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@datum @dgregor79 @Paulatics @pluralistic
> it's currently illegal, if I understand right, to photocopy someone's ID when carding them
Really? Where? There are now two grocery stores in WA state where I will no longer buy beer because they insist on photo-scanning my ID. (No law requires they do this.)
You should have seen my face when they told me it wasn't stored anywhere.
BTW? I'm nearly 70. Lots of places don't even ID me to begin with.
@jackwilliambell I would have to dig through privacy legislation, and I'm no lawyer, but I understood BC Privacy law used to say that it was illegal to require collection of most PII.
However also in BC, nightclubs have a "voluntary" ID scan. You can choose to not patronize them.
Anyways my understanding of privacy law is likely wrong so I'll amend that post; thank you for flagging the likely error!
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@jackwilliambell @datum @dgregor79 @Paulatics @pluralistic I think that most places in my country err on the side of caution by checking age for certain items and places (pubs, bars, nightclubs) by saying 'If you look under 25, we will ask you to prove you are 18 or over'. My son was asked once to prove he was 18, on his 18th birthday! But I have never known a place here do more than check the relevant details.
@UkeleleEric @jackwilliambell @datum @dgregor79 @Paulatics @pluralistic When I was young, we made a point by showing our driver's license for movies etc.
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@datum @dgregor79 @Paulatics @pluralistic
> it's currently illegal, if I understand right, to photocopy someone's ID when carding them
Really? Where? There are now two grocery stores in WA state where I will no longer buy beer because they insist on photo-scanning my ID. (No law requires they do this.)
You should have seen my face when they told me it wasn't stored anywhere.
BTW? I'm nearly 70. Lots of places don't even ID me to begin with.
@jackwilliambell @datum @dgregor79 @Paulatics @pluralistic yeah, that struck me as odd too. certainly not everywhere yet, but scanning ids is becoming more and more prevalent. of course with no transparency as to what system they’re using, no privacy or retention policies to review, &c.
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@datum @dgregor79 @Paulatics @pluralistic
> it's currently illegal, if I understand right, to photocopy someone's ID when carding them
Really? Where? There are now two grocery stores in WA state where I will no longer buy beer because they insist on photo-scanning my ID. (No law requires they do this.)
You should have seen my face when they told me it wasn't stored anywhere.
BTW? I'm nearly 70. Lots of places don't even ID me to begin with.
@pluralistic @dgregor79 @datum @Paulatics @jackwilliambell
A lot of chain stores scan IDs. When I tell them I'm happy to show them my ID but don't want it scanned, they refuse to make the sale. So I walk. But then I shop at Costco and they have cameras on everyone and monitor every item you purchase. Which they sell to their advertisers.
ID's give a lot of personal data. ID checks are data mining and they do it to sell us out.
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@jackwilliambell @datum @dgregor79 @Paulatics @pluralistic yeah, that struck me as odd too. certainly not everywhere yet, but scanning ids is becoming more and more prevalent. of course with no transparency as to what system they’re using, no privacy or retention policies to review, &c.
@brhfl @datum @dgregor79 @Paulatics @pluralistic
Not to mention: How would a cashier know what the system does with the data? It's so frustrating to deal with people who have no clue, either as to how the technology works or how it can be/will be used in privacy invasive ways.
I just look them in the eye and say, "I used to write code for things like this. I know how the sausage is made. Trust me, you have no idea…"
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@pluralistic @dgregor79 @datum @Paulatics @jackwilliambell
A lot of chain stores scan IDs. When I tell them I'm happy to show them my ID but don't want it scanned, they refuse to make the sale. So I walk. But then I shop at Costco and they have cameras on everyone and monitor every item you purchase. Which they sell to their advertisers.
ID's give a lot of personal data. ID checks are data mining and they do it to sell us out.
@FranceskaMann @pluralistic @dgregor79 @datum @Paulatics
> ID's give a lot of personal data. ID checks are data mining and they do it to sell us out.
Absolutely.
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@pinhman Fascinating link. Definitely parallels how social media companies are trying to push age verification laws to shield themselves from the harm caused by their products in the style of "It's not our fault the kids are smoking! We put warning labels on the packets!"
@datum Effective regulation of social media will be what legislators can force social media companies to reveal.
Will this force social media to develop zero knowledge protocols that allow regulation without revealing what social media wish to hold private?
Would these be enough of a compromise to regulate effectively, as social media works to build a sophisticated knowledge of every noble and ugly idea our public hold and monetize every part of this?
