I would like to give an update on "federation" on Bluesky.
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So what I understand from this is that it would be relatively possible for BlackSky or NorthSky to add ActivityPub as a secondary protocol in ways that would likely be unfeasible to do the other way (ActivityPub instance using ATProto as a secondary protocol)
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...this is just a surface level commentary on what happened, but if you were BIPOC or followed prominent BIPOC folk here you could eventually see a pattern in the interactions.
I know Bluesky is definitely not a panacea in this regard either (otherwise why the tremendous effort out into blacksky?), but they did address the wants and needs of nonwhite people better at least initially, at the app level.
Anyways what I am seeing is that both ecosystems here are making similar mistakes and facing similar challenges, and it is to do with some aspects of insufficient diversity both technically and socially.
@msh @ikuturso @mcc @swetland @gbargoud arguably bluesky could address those needs better because they maintain control over the full vertical and can apply advisory policies that don't have any real security backing. you can use a different appview or just browse the data directly and *not* apply blocks, gates, etc... this horrifies most people who learn about it and horrifies them further that there's nothing they can do about it. all the policies only apply if you're using the official apps.
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@msh @ikuturso @mcc @swetland @gbargoud arguably bluesky could address those needs better because they maintain control over the full vertical and can apply advisory policies that don't have any real security backing. you can use a different appview or just browse the data directly and *not* apply blocks, gates, etc... this horrifies most people who learn about it and horrifies them further that there's nothing they can do about it. all the policies only apply if you're using the official apps.
@msh @ikuturso @mcc @swetland @gbargoud however, with that said, the vast majority of people are using the official apps. so the blocks and gates "work" in the sense that the vast majority of people are subject to them. but it remains trivially easy to just *not* respect those blocks and gates, because all the data is forever public
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@mcc @lrhodes @esoteric_programmer @alter_kaker I think they just straight up renamed the "Big Graph Server" or BGS to Relay.
They announced it in Nov 2023 here: https://github.com/bluesky-social/atproto/discussions/1847
@ikuturso @lrhodes @esoteric_programmer @alter_kaker yeah, that thing
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@esoteric_programmer @alter_kaker @mcc as I understand it the cost of a relay has gone down because you can run it without keeping full account of the message history for all time and instead restrict what you have to a time-window.
Raises the question of whether that's good enough if we want real alternatives to the official company infra though.
@ikuturso @esoteric_programmer @alter_kaker @mcc that $34/month is enough for 2 hours per the article
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@mcc what exactly is the benefit of migrating to a non bluesky PDS? I understand being on an entirely different vertical stack like Blacksky or Northsky but what does being on a PDS give you? Aren't you still (almost) entirely at bluesky's mercy?
@eniko the advantage is the data is yours and you can recover it later if Bluesky goes berserk. This is a mild advantage but in keeping with the mild advantages operating a PDS is also a mild imposition. It's practically a git repo with a weird frontend. I'm not saying self host but if people are starting to host alternate bluesky bits, this is the most likely thing for someone to alternate host (because it is the least demanding thing) so it's the most likely option to appear.
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@mat @lrhodes @mcc @alter_kaker @esoteric_programmer the pds/storage can change because the identity is a separate layer. the authority is a DID (most likely did:plc but did:web is also supported). the DID document points to your current PDS. this allows the pds to change as long as the did stays the same.
example: you are did:plc:whatever, and your pds is shiitake.example, but you migrate your data from shiitake to puffball. the did document updates the service pointer: https://web.plc.directory/did/did:plc:ewvi7nxzyoun6zhxrhs64oiz
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@mat @lrhodes @mcc @alter_kaker @esoteric_programmer the pds/storage can change because the identity is a separate layer. the authority is a DID (most likely did:plc but did:web is also supported). the DID document points to your current PDS. this allows the pds to change as long as the did stays the same.
example: you are did:plc:whatever, and your pds is shiitake.example, but you migrate your data from shiitake to puffball. the did document updates the service pointer: https://web.plc.directory/did/did:plc:ewvi7nxzyoun6zhxrhs64oiz
@mat @lrhodes @mcc @alter_kaker @esoteric_programmer it's kind of like updating dns records. the did:plc stuff is fully in control of bluesky pbllc of course, so it's equivalent to everyone having an id of https :// plc.directory / whatever which is itself equivalent to serving http redirects.
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I (me, mcc) never trusted Bluesky, so I've been self-hosting my own PDS from the start. I've been happily using blacksky.community for the last month (since Bluesky started gating access to their appview/web frontend on clicking to agree to a new TOS that seemed to me sketchy). Hypothetically, "Gertrude" could do the same. She can join Northsky PDS, make posts through Zeppelin, and Bluesky blocks her but Blacksky just fetches the posts from her PDS for me, and I get to read them.
Right? (2/3)
@mcc how hard is it to set up your own PDS?
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@eniko the advantage is the data is yours and you can recover it later if Bluesky goes berserk. This is a mild advantage but in keeping with the mild advantages operating a PDS is also a mild imposition. It's practically a git repo with a weird frontend. I'm not saying self host but if people are starting to host alternate bluesky bits, this is the most likely thing for someone to alternate host (because it is the least demanding thing) so it's the most likely option to appear.
@eniko In a world where Mastodon/ActivityPub doesn't exist, having the PDS would be a cool opportunity because if you ever do bug out from bluesky, instead of having to find someone replicating that giant teetering ATProto stack you could bridge to, or create, some kind of alternative system. But in this actual world this feels pointless since the alternative systems (like ActivityPub) that exist already are more capable to begin with, so why not just make the posts there to begin with.
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@mcc how hard is it to set up your own PDS?
@tylercook like, absurdly easy. Do you know Docker or any Docker-like system?
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@jrose @mcc Even the portability being better is somewhat theoretical right now because if your identity is using did:plc then you are unable to move away from did:plc and Bluesky PBC has custody of your keys... And also like people have noticed hosting your own data in a PDS does not really make you independent from their actions so the point of doing it is somewhat unclear.
@ikuturso @jrose @mcc yeah, unfortunately bluesky has zero interest in supporting did migrations. they only support changing your dns handle
EDIT: source https://bsky.app/profile/bnewbold.net/post/3lchpwc2hws2r
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@eniko In a world where Mastodon/ActivityPub doesn't exist, having the PDS would be a cool opportunity because if you ever do bug out from bluesky, instead of having to find someone replicating that giant teetering ATProto stack you could bridge to, or create, some kind of alternative system. But in this actual world this feels pointless since the alternative systems (like ActivityPub) that exist already are more capable to begin with, so why not just make the posts there to begin with.
@eniko I think M Kasprzak actually has a fork of the official Bluesky PDS, right now, that also publishes to ActivityPub. I think Wafrn can do that too. So that would be an example of "bridging" like I mean— you could start syndicating your bluesky posts to Fediverse, and if you ever bug out from Bluesky just disconnect those endpoints and now you've just got a fediverse server. But this scenario assumes you weren't already more established and comfortable on Fediverse than Bluesky to start with
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@ikuturso @jrose @mcc yeah, unfortunately bluesky has zero interest in supporting did migrations. they only support changing your dns handle
EDIT: source https://bsky.app/profile/bnewbold.net/post/3lchpwc2hws2r
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@eniko I think M Kasprzak actually has a fork of the official Bluesky PDS, right now, that also publishes to ActivityPub. I think Wafrn can do that too. So that would be an example of "bridging" like I mean— you could start syndicating your bluesky posts to Fediverse, and if you ever bug out from Bluesky just disconnect those endpoints and now you've just got a fediverse server. But this scenario assumes you weren't already more established and comfortable on Fediverse than Bluesky to start with
@mcc yeah I've been asked repeatedly to join wafrn but I've never wanted to because I don't want to post the exact same things on bluesky that I do here. They're two different cultures that react very differently to posts. And also, now, it's been made clear to me it's not necessarily safe to post as freely on bluesky
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@mcc yeah I've been asked repeatedly to join wafrn but I've never wanted to because I don't want to post the exact same things on bluesky that I do here. They're two different cultures that react very differently to posts. And also, now, it's been made clear to me it's not necessarily safe to post as freely on bluesky
@eniko Yes, I think these are great points.
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@eniko In a world where Mastodon/ActivityPub doesn't exist, having the PDS would be a cool opportunity because if you ever do bug out from bluesky, instead of having to find someone replicating that giant teetering ATProto stack you could bridge to, or create, some kind of alternative system. But in this actual world this feels pointless since the alternative systems (like ActivityPub) that exist already are more capable to begin with, so why not just make the posts there to begin with.
@mcc yeah i think the best case i can make is that if you don't like the people currently on the fediverse but do like the people currently on bluesky, then minimizing the risk of using bluesky might be a smart middle ground. (you could always run an isolated mastodon server, but you could also just run phpbb or an irc server or whatever at that point.)
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@nullpotential @mcc people on Bluesky who have soured on fedi often complain about having been lectured about using alt text and CWs for what it's worth.
@ikuturso @nullpotential @mcc signing up for mastodon.social is not the worst thing you could do. setting up your own server and being subject to harassment by widely blocked servers you didn't know existed? the immediate response was to look for shared blocklists, but that just led to more conflict because again, how are you supposed to be aware of the years-long social dynamics of a space you literally just joined? the common refrain of "just use a different instance" was taken dismissively.
