When renewables flood the grid with more electricity than is needed at that moment, we don’t say „How wonderful!
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@jwildeboer @Reinald in the biophysical domain scarcity is more or less anchored on the planetary boundaries (and within reason, renewable energy is not constrained by them
, though it gets more complicated with supply chains and waste etc)In the human domain, what can I say, this magical silicon stuff is something humanity doesn't deserve. For decades visionaries waxed lyrical about its incredible potential and in practice all that happens is deeper levels of dystopia. Something's gotta give
@openrisk @jwildeboer for me, abundance means: enough for everybody. It is, of course, within planetary limits. With growth rates declining, peak humanity might be at 10 or 11 Billion human beeings. And they all could have a decent and healthy life. They could not all have 150m yachts and private jets.
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@openrisk @jwildeboer for me, abundance means: enough for everybody. It is, of course, within planetary limits. With growth rates declining, peak humanity might be at 10 or 11 Billion human beeings. And they all could have a decent and healthy life. They could not all have 150m yachts and private jets.
one would have to do the calculation but its not inconceivable that everybody of the 11 billion could have at least *some* "yacht" experience in their lives (and 50% would get sea-sick and hate it
).Of course if we keep inventing materially wasteful status symbols to play paleolithic social dominance games via "ownership" and exlcusion, we do run against hard limits. So-called "space tourism" comes to mind as obvious example.
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one would have to do the calculation but its not inconceivable that everybody of the 11 billion could have at least *some* "yacht" experience in their lives (and 50% would get sea-sick and hate it
).Of course if we keep inventing materially wasteful status symbols to play paleolithic social dominance games via "ownership" and exlcusion, we do run against hard limits. So-called "space tourism" comes to mind as obvious example.
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@jwildeboer @openrisk yes and no. Ending Scarcity is not in the interest of big companies in that area. And the Technologie is allready there - batteries work (even commercially), H2 electrolysis not yet, seasonal cycles not yet. For short term stabilizing even flywheels work.
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@ChrisW84 Remember that most of the current grid operators were created through privatising the grid, which used to be publicly owned infrastructure. They happily took over the grids, reduced investing for many years while driving up the costs for consumers in the name of shareholder value.
@jwildeboer das muss man klar differenzieren. In den 90ern haben die großen Konzerne wie E.ON, RWE usw soviel Kapital wie möglich aus Kraftwerken und Netzen gezogen und kaum investiert. Die Kraftwerke wurden geschlossen und die Netze an die jetzigen Betreiber veräußert. Den trümmerhaufen haben die jetzigen Betreiber zum Großteil erneuert und ausgebaut mit Kapital vom Markt oder aktivierbar mit Segen der BNetzA über Netzentgelte. Die wären schon viel weiter ohne die Politischen Bremser.
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When renewables flood the grid with more electricity than is needed at that moment, we don’t say „How wonderful! Let’s find ways to store that excess electricity so we can share it back to the grid when needed.“ Instead we sing the song of fossil fuel capitalism that claims this is a BAD thing and we need to shut down the renewable plants so The Grid can keep on working based on scarcity and rent seeking. It's like we all have been brainwashed by the grid operators and the fossile fuel industry.
@jwildeboer We have been brainwashed by capitalism.
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When renewables flood the grid with more electricity than is needed at that moment, we don’t say „How wonderful! Let’s find ways to store that excess electricity so we can share it back to the grid when needed.“ Instead we sing the song of fossil fuel capitalism that claims this is a BAD thing and we need to shut down the renewable plants so The Grid can keep on working based on scarcity and rent seeking. It's like we all have been brainwashed by the grid operators and the fossile fuel industry.
@jwildeboer It's fair to claim that the 'American Experiment' is based on the wealthiest controlling root, vital infrastructure, to setup and continue abuses such as this. #PlannedObsolescence #education, #UltraProcessedFoods diminishing vitality range - especially brain function based on gi tract depletion - conditioning into trickle-DOWN economics, without symmetrical return.
Since a Mamdani/Bernie/AOC team needs scale, a #DemocraticSocialist #Revolution is required. So how to get started?..
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When renewables flood the grid with more electricity than is needed at that moment, we don’t say „How wonderful! Let’s find ways to store that excess electricity so we can share it back to the grid when needed.“ Instead we sing the song of fossil fuel capitalism that claims this is a BAD thing and we need to shut down the renewable plants so The Grid can keep on working based on scarcity and rent seeking. It's like we all have been brainwashed by the grid operators and the fossile fuel industry.
@jwildeboer exactly that is the problem!
- Alongside the way #privatization makes #energy more expensive!
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When renewables flood the grid with more electricity than is needed at that moment, we don’t say „How wonderful! Let’s find ways to store that excess electricity so we can share it back to the grid when needed.“ Instead we sing the song of fossil fuel capitalism that claims this is a BAD thing and we need to shut down the renewable plants so The Grid can keep on working based on scarcity and rent seeking. It's like we all have been brainwashed by the grid operators and the fossile fuel industry.
@jwildeboer Not to speak of all the ways extra electricity could be used opportunistically. Thinking of scrap yards steel recycling for example.
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When renewables flood the grid with more electricity than is needed at that moment, we don’t say „How wonderful! Let’s find ways to store that excess electricity so we can share it back to the grid when needed.“ Instead we sing the song of fossil fuel capitalism that claims this is a BAD thing and we need to shut down the renewable plants so The Grid can keep on working based on scarcity and rent seeking. It's like we all have been brainwashed by the grid operators and the fossile fuel industry.
@jwildeboer
I also think, that batteries/storage solutions are one of the next necessary steps. -
When renewables flood the grid with more electricity than is needed at that moment, we don’t say „How wonderful! Let’s find ways to store that excess electricity so we can share it back to the grid when needed.“ Instead we sing the song of fossil fuel capitalism that claims this is a BAD thing and we need to shut down the renewable plants so The Grid can keep on working based on scarcity and rent seeking. It's like we all have been brainwashed by the grid operators and the fossile fuel industry.
@jwildeboer We need constant reliability and have legacy constraints. Utilities *should* be cautious and slow to change. It's moving, but it's not entirely clear how you get from current state to a better grid, given regulator/rate-payer caution and ignorance. If all loads are now DC from a grid perspective, maybe we need an entirely new grid. And in some place we are doing that.
The grid started as disjoint, private, local (often coop) efforts. The new grid might well start the same way.
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@jwildeboer you are right on this. Digital media is managed for scarcity. But in pysical world it is not so much different - most scarcity is artificial. If we would organize smarter, distribute better, produce more intelligently, many many people would suffer way less.
@Reinald @jwildeboer Yes, in theory. As someone who grew up in a centrally planned economy, I'm doubtful that the society can do much better than capitalism.
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When renewables flood the grid with more electricity than is needed at that moment, we don’t say „How wonderful! Let’s find ways to store that excess electricity so we can share it back to the grid when needed.“ Instead we sing the song of fossil fuel capitalism that claims this is a BAD thing and we need to shut down the renewable plants so The Grid can keep on working based on scarcity and rent seeking. It's like we all have been brainwashed by the grid operators and the fossile fuel industry.
@jwildeboer
You might already know this, but on both days last weekend the UK grid was so awash with renewable electricity that prices went negative. Customers on price-tracking tariffs were paid to use electricity for most of the day. -
@jwildeboer @openrisk yes and no. Ending Scarcity is not in the interest of big companies in that area. And the Technologie is allready there - batteries work (even commercially), H2 electrolysis not yet, seasonal cycles not yet. For short term stabilizing even flywheels work.
@Reinald @jwildeboer @openrisk
Batteries come with their own set of problems, which is not to say these are insurmountable, specifically social and environmental costs in acquiring the raw materials.The real difficulty, as I see it, is that we can produce excess energy for half the year but consumption in the other half exceeds production. Can we run energy intensive industries for just half the year? Otherwise we need ways to store energy for the other half.
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@valhalla @jwildeboer ironing clothing should be fine as well
@lechimp @jwildeboer an useful use of energy? very
but I could have been eating cake!
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@Reinald @jwildeboer @openrisk
Batteries come with their own set of problems, which is not to say these are insurmountable, specifically social and environmental costs in acquiring the raw materials.The real difficulty, as I see it, is that we can produce excess energy for half the year but consumption in the other half exceeds production. Can we run energy intensive industries for just half the year? Otherwise we need ways to store energy for the other half.
@OneInterestingFact @Reinald @jwildeboer @openrisk Since I can see #batteries mentioned in this thread, have you heard about this project? #flowbattery #opensourcehardware
https://fbrc.dev/ -
(No need to reply with "not me!", I know. I exaggerated with the inclusive "we" to make my point clear. The majority of people out there don't have thinking about a better, more decentralised and self-balancing grid to make electricity more of a commodity on their priority list.)
@jwildeboer It's not only framed as a BAD thing, it is claimed that "too much renewable energy" costs a lot of money.
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@Reinald @jwildeboer Yes, in theory. As someone who grew up in a centrally planned economy, I'm doubtful that the society can do much better than capitalism.
@ptesarik @Reinald @jwildeboer you are mistaken. I’ve seen what capitalism can give and what the costs are, it doesn’t work. Death is the driving force of capitalism, you buy or you die. Those that don’t buy are not removed, they are left to suffer as long as possible so others can watch the suffering and learn. We will feed you but it will not be nutritious. We will shelter you but only for a night. We will stop you from dying but won’t heal you.
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@ptesarik @Reinald @jwildeboer you are mistaken. I’ve seen what capitalism can give and what the costs are, it doesn’t work. Death is the driving force of capitalism, you buy or you die. Those that don’t buy are not removed, they are left to suffer as long as possible so others can watch the suffering and learn. We will feed you but it will not be nutritious. We will shelter you but only for a night. We will stop you from dying but won’t heal you.
@passwordsarehard4 @Reinald @jwildeboer I'm not trying to say capitalism is better than what it is. But I've seen what socialism can give and what the costs are, it doesn't work. Hell, it has all the flaws of capitalism and some more. I can compare, because I've seen both socialism and capitalism.
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@Reinald There's real scarcity and artificial scarcity. I dare say that the whole digital/internet business is based on artificial scarcity, where we accept things like Digital Rights Management to keep the reality of abundance more or less a secret.
@jwildeboer I have tought for many years about the supposed abundance of digital goods, and one problem is that the situation is incorrectly stated. Digital goods are asymmetrical. They are aboundant after creation. But they don't pop into existence done. Creation relies on scarce resources (time/people). So the imbalance is what it makes it hard to deal with, and a pure capitalistic approach tries to extend that scarcity beyond creation, to make a profit.
