The UK government is talking about "reviving high streets".
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@neil As a non-Brit who spent 15 years living in different parts of the UK, I'm honestly confused by the UK obsession with revitalising the High Street. As far as I can tell, the majority of High Streets were taken over by chains long before I moved there & were/are priced out of reach of independent businesses (what few can get by in a hostile economic environment). Is Specsavers, Tesco, Costa, WHSmith, Witherspoons the High Street that they want to go back to?
@neil I've moved to northern Spain more recently & it's a different world. Yeah, there are chain supermarkets & shops, but they're vastly outnumbered by the smaller bakeries, butchers, fruit & veg shops, cafe bars, hardware stores. Small businesses or chains that can survive without needing to be part of the same 3-6 massive companies.
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@neil I've moved to northern Spain more recently & it's a different world. Yeah, there are chain supermarkets & shops, but they're vastly outnumbered by the smaller bakeries, butchers, fruit & veg shops, cafe bars, hardware stores. Small businesses or chains that can survive without needing to be part of the same 3-6 massive companies.
@neil Oh & that's not to mention that kids & teenagers aren't treated like criminals-to-be & are actually encouraged to exist in public spaces without having to always pay for the privilege.
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@rogerlipscombe @neil I've been assuming they probably need to tax online sales at a higher rate to bring back more custom to bricks and mortar stores. And I'm not sure how I feel about that overall.
I was thinking about this last week. How do you do that without unduly impacting individuals or small companies selling stuff through, e.g., Shopify.
What you want to do is tax Amazon until it bleeds, but leave the small folks alone.
But how do you legislate that so that it looks fair^W^W won't get challenged in the courts and there are no "oh no, we spent all of our profit on licensing the logo"-style loopholes?
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I was thinking about this last week. How do you do that without unduly impacting individuals or small companies selling stuff through, e.g., Shopify.
What you want to do is tax Amazon until it bleeds, but leave the small folks alone.
But how do you legislate that so that it looks fair^W^W won't get challenged in the courts and there are no "oh no, we spent all of our profit on licensing the logo"-style loopholes?
Moreover, how do you distinguish between a consumer-level online sale, and one where the high street store ordered stuff, well, online...?
Edit: Maybe VAT, where you can reclaim it...?
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The UK government is talking about "reviving high streets".
I don't go the town centre very often, as there is little that draws me to it. Coffee shops, charity shops, barbers shops. And, okay, a lovely indie board game shop, but I don't buy board games regularly.
My feeling is that a "high street", or "town centre", is an anachronism?
At least, I don't know what would have to change about our town centre, for me to want to go.
High streets revived and children given safe places to play
New initiative will support local areas to reimagine and revive their struggling high streets
GOV.UK (www.gov.uk)
@neil
I go to the city centre (Leicester) maybe 5 times a year.
Opticians is the main reason, although we recently took our grandchildren to a museum.
If we want High Streets in our towns - and I'm unconvinced - the area where they are to work needs to be tightly defined, not recreated as the sprawl of the 1950s High Street.
Public transport must make it easy and attractive to get there, and there needs to be something completely different to the same old chains that are in the out of town parks.
Oh, and we need people living in the centres of towns and cities that will use the High Street too.Basically, we need a national conversation about what the High Street is, and what it's for.
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Moreover, how do you distinguish between a consumer-level online sale, and one where the high street store ordered stuff, well, online...?
Edit: Maybe VAT, where you can reclaim it...?
@rogerlipscombe @neil well there's a whole lot of websites that try to disclaim all sorts of legal responsibilities that other retailers and services face because they're "merely a marketplace". Maybe that behaviour should attract the extra tax?
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@neil if the government wants to revive high streets, it needs to reinstate the payments from central government to local, so that councils can keep business rates down, and provide amenities, and keep the place looking nice.
@rogerlipscombe @neil Lower business rates don't help to revive high streets. In fact, they do the opposite. Business rate reductions are just a handout to landlords.
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We tend to do our food shopping weekly. We plan in advance, and cook in batches. We minimise food waste, conveniently. We schedule a delivery for a time that suits us, and can shop when we want.
Is a high street with a butcher, baker, greengrocers, grocers, chemist etc going to be open during "normal working hours" (I.e. when most people are working?), or open when more people are able to visit? Or are they weekend-only affairs?
@neil
‘Through these partnerships, town centres could be transformed into mixed-use spaces with new homes, health services, libraries, community hubs and green spaces.’
It seems as if the small town in which I live is ahead of the game. The formula adopted here has delivered/maintained all these things. The town’s development association has supported a community hub, an activity centre, renovating an historical space. -
We tend to do our food shopping weekly. We plan in advance, and cook in batches. We minimise food waste, conveniently. We schedule a delivery for a time that suits us, and can shop when we want.
Is a high street with a butcher, baker, greengrocers, grocers, chemist etc going to be open during "normal working hours" (I.e. when most people are working?), or open when more people are able to visit? Or are they weekend-only affairs?
@neil I think I'd tend to agree with you that any high street revival more needs to be an evolution. Likely smaller and focused on different services.
I think often though, the success of a town high street, is linked to the general success of the area.
Given the costs bared by smaller shops, it's hard to see how they can compete.
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@neil
‘Through these partnerships, town centres could be transformed into mixed-use spaces with new homes, health services, libraries, community hubs and green spaces.’
It seems as if the small town in which I live is ahead of the game. The formula adopted here has delivered/maintained all these things. The town’s development association has supported a community hub, an activity centre, renovating an historical space.@neil
While there is an over-abundance of cafes there is an excellent pub-restaurant. Some derelict premises are being replaced with a new housing association development of 13 apartments (sympathetic design).
The mix seems to be appropriate, the main street is only 800m, or so. Not every business succeeds but vacant premises don’t lie idle too long.
All things considered, I am happy to have moved here 15 or so years ago. -
The UK government is talking about "reviving high streets".
I don't go the town centre very often, as there is little that draws me to it. Coffee shops, charity shops, barbers shops. And, okay, a lovely indie board game shop, but I don't buy board games regularly.
My feeling is that a "high street", or "town centre", is an anachronism?
At least, I don't know what would have to change about our town centre, for me to want to go.
High streets revived and children given safe places to play
New initiative will support local areas to reimagine and revive their struggling high streets
GOV.UK (www.gov.uk)
@neil it's not economically viable for so many reasons
- people now mostly live in little boxes far from town
- people can't variety in many goods but space is only cheap out of town so small shops are showrooms and order stuff in
-: it's simply easier to get most goods onlineAnd lots more. The post WW2 high street IMHO is a moment in time before which lots of people had stuff delivered and which we are heading back towards
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@neil
I go to the city centre (Leicester) maybe 5 times a year.
Opticians is the main reason, although we recently took our grandchildren to a museum.
If we want High Streets in our towns - and I'm unconvinced - the area where they are to work needs to be tightly defined, not recreated as the sprawl of the 1950s High Street.
Public transport must make it easy and attractive to get there, and there needs to be something completely different to the same old chains that are in the out of town parks.
Oh, and we need people living in the centres of towns and cities that will use the High Street too.Basically, we need a national conversation about what the High Street is, and what it's for.
@MikeFromLFE @neil I live near the same city as you. We're about the same, we go into the city (during daylight hours) 5 or 6 times a year, usually because we have vouchers that the sprogs need to spend or want entertainment in the city centre. For shopping it's online or the nearby Fosse Park retail park (where there's free parking and free charging).
I do go into the city centre on evenings on average once a week for a TTRPG game in one of the pubs. I used to go at the weekends to meet my mates in the pub, but lockdown killed that habit so it's now once in a blue moon.
Getting to the city centre is expensive for a family, the park and ride is the cheapest as you only pay for the car, which means I can't use it to go into town and have a drink. Parking is second cheapest. If I want to have a drink as well, then it's the bus which is expensive. (If I'm drinking and by myself, I normally walk the ~5 miles into the city and get the bus back)
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@MikeFromLFE @neil I live near the same city as you. We're about the same, we go into the city (during daylight hours) 5 or 6 times a year, usually because we have vouchers that the sprogs need to spend or want entertainment in the city centre. For shopping it's online or the nearby Fosse Park retail park (where there's free parking and free charging).
I do go into the city centre on evenings on average once a week for a TTRPG game in one of the pubs. I used to go at the weekends to meet my mates in the pub, but lockdown killed that habit so it's now once in a blue moon.
Getting to the city centre is expensive for a family, the park and ride is the cheapest as you only pay for the car, which means I can't use it to go into town and have a drink. Parking is second cheapest. If I want to have a drink as well, then it's the bus which is expensive. (If I'm drinking and by myself, I normally walk the ~5 miles into the city and get the bus back)
@MikeFromLFE @neil Also to add: there is a good, mostly offroad cycling route (following a decommisioned railway track) to the city centre and a place that offers inside secure bike parking. If I went regularly in daylight, that's probably how I would chose to do it.
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R relay@relay.infosec.exchange shared this topic
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The UK government is talking about "reviving high streets".
I don't go the town centre very often, as there is little that draws me to it. Coffee shops, charity shops, barbers shops. And, okay, a lovely indie board game shop, but I don't buy board games regularly.
My feeling is that a "high street", or "town centre", is an anachronism?
At least, I don't know what would have to change about our town centre, for me to want to go.
High streets revived and children given safe places to play
New initiative will support local areas to reimagine and revive their struggling high streets
GOV.UK (www.gov.uk)
@neil I went to your town centre recently, only to discover that the bookshop I was intending to visit had closed.
(I think it had opened in the big shopping centre while it was being closed down; they're planning on reopening the bookshop in Chelsea, apparently).
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Moreover, how do you distinguish between a consumer-level online sale, and one where the high street store ordered stuff, well, online...?
Edit: Maybe VAT, where you can reclaim it...?
@rogerlipscombe @neil I was also wondering about VAT as a mechanism here, possibly tied to card holder not present transactions but that has some awkward edge cases e.g. with local garages and paying over the phone and might lead to more "tell us your PIN" nonsense from the less scrupulous types too.
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@rogerlipscombe @neil I was also wondering about VAT as a mechanism here, possibly tied to card holder not present transactions but that has some awkward edge cases e.g. with local garages and paying over the phone and might lead to more "tell us your PIN" nonsense from the less scrupulous types too.
@awoodland @rogerlipscombe @neil Even if you did "no VAT for on-premises sales", someone would sell on premises to the delivery driver who is not VAT registered, and sells to the customer... But such an idea would cover Amazon quite well I guess, and a shop buying from Amazon gets to reclaim VAT and not charge it. It could work maybe.
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The UK government is talking about "reviving high streets".
I don't go the town centre very often, as there is little that draws me to it. Coffee shops, charity shops, barbers shops. And, okay, a lovely indie board game shop, but I don't buy board games regularly.
My feeling is that a "high street", or "town centre", is an anachronism?
At least, I don't know what would have to change about our town centre, for me to want to go.
High streets revived and children given safe places to play
New initiative will support local areas to reimagine and revive their struggling high streets
GOV.UK (www.gov.uk)
@neil high rents and businesses rates in town centres, combined with low rent and tiny business rates outside of towns killed the high street. The big chains under-cut the small shops, and then easy online ordering and delivering allowed them to expand further.
No government has the balls to address the root causes and it's all just lip service. The slide just continues.
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The UK government is talking about "reviving high streets".
I don't go the town centre very often, as there is little that draws me to it. Coffee shops, charity shops, barbers shops. And, okay, a lovely indie board game shop, but I don't buy board games regularly.
My feeling is that a "high street", or "town centre", is an anachronism?
At least, I don't know what would have to change about our town centre, for me to want to go.
High streets revived and children given safe places to play
New initiative will support local areas to reimagine and revive their struggling high streets
GOV.UK (www.gov.uk)
@neil I am inclined to agree with others here; first we need a conversation in each locality about the purpose of their town in the modern age, where most trade no longer takes place face to face or locally at all. So why congregate at all?
I'd suggest the prime motive has moved to socialising and preening; things which define ourselves, rather than satisfying any basic need for supplies. Hence all the food/drink based social spaces, barbers and nail bars! Do we have the right mix, though?
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@neil high rents and businesses rates in town centres, combined with low rent and tiny business rates outside of towns killed the high street. The big chains under-cut the small shops, and then easy online ordering and delivering allowed them to expand further.
No government has the balls to address the root causes and it's all just lip service. The slide just continues.
@drajt @neil The "high street" was a dinosaur industry on its way out even before covid switched a lot more shopping to online.
Looking for something actually in stock in a shop these days can mean spending half a day cycling round town, and eventually finding a shop which doesn't have one right now but can order one for you ... using the same web form you could have filled in at home three hours earlier.
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The UK government is talking about "reviving high streets".
I don't go the town centre very often, as there is little that draws me to it. Coffee shops, charity shops, barbers shops. And, okay, a lovely indie board game shop, but I don't buy board games regularly.
My feeling is that a "high street", or "town centre", is an anachronism?
At least, I don't know what would have to change about our town centre, for me to want to go.
High streets revived and children given safe places to play
New initiative will support local areas to reimagine and revive their struggling high streets
GOV.UK (www.gov.uk)
@neil I think some of it is nostalgia, and harking back to a time before online shopping, out of town supermarkets, everyone had a car etc.
But I live in a market town which is incredibly busy during the week - lots of places to eat, drink etc. A neighbouring town is down to charity, pound and betting shops and it is a much less pleasant experience.
I don't think it can be solved by chucking what is a trivial sum of money at the problem though.
