Reflecting on @alice's thread (https://lgbtqia.space/@alice/116364914347035018) that
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@neil I know these kind of articles in order to reach their audience (men who think they're doing nothing wrong) have to choose this framing... but the way they make it about women "feeling safer" and "feeling more comfortable" is itself a gendered microaggression it'd be really cool for men to stop defaulting to.
This stuff is about women _being_ safer, and about the reality that current cultural environments are not safe and have never been safe.
I wish we had a better framing for stuff like "touching, but didn't mean it like that" than to cast it as about the woman's feelings rather than their autonomy and their lived experience and there being extremely real reasons why normalized microaggression IS an aggression and contributes to rape culture.
@neil I'll add an actionable one to the list while I'm at it:
Guys, if you have to have a 1:1 meeting, consider offering a choice (without making it sound like it's about safety or condescending, just an ordinary choice, maybe do this with everyone) of venue such as a coffee shop or cafeteria rather than insisting or defaulting (or putting the onus on them to insist otherwise) to having 1:1 meetings behind closed office doors. Some people with traumatic experiences around assault in closed rooms (more than you might think) will never say a word about it while quietly having hours of flashbacks and also forgetting everything you said in the meeting.
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Reflecting on @alice's thread (https://lgbtqia.space/@alice/116364914347035018) that
> I've never met a femme-presenting¹ person who didn't have a sexual harassment/assault story.
This jives with my own experience, and is horrific.
But more than just expressing sympathy, perhaps men here can share actual, tangible steps they will / already take to bring this to an end. (It is our responsibility to solve it.)
I've tooted this before but, IMHO, it is a pretty good resource in terms of helping men do better offline:
Small things you can do to make a woman feel safer
To help women feel safe, Rosy Edwards has put together this guidance, so you can understand and give support in a way that really helps.
Metro (metro.co.uk)
Annoyingly, I can't find the link that I wanted in terms of men doing better online, so links / suggestions welcome!
@neil @alice I think in general it helps to not pay attention to the person's gender. Act gender neutral. If there's anxiety or hesitation give space to reply. Make it easy to say no, its very good to acknowledge boundaries especially for neurodivergent femme's where they expect them to be violated.
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@neil @alice I think in general it helps to not pay attention to the person's gender. Act gender neutral. If there's anxiety or hesitation give space to reply. Make it easy to say no, its very good to acknowledge boundaries especially for neurodivergent femme's where they expect them to be violated.
> I think in general it helps to not pay attention to the person's gender. Act gender neutral
IMHO, this is likely to further adversely impact vulnerable groups - sometimes, what is required is *positive* action.
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Reflecting on @alice's thread (https://lgbtqia.space/@alice/116364914347035018) that
> I've never met a femme-presenting¹ person who didn't have a sexual harassment/assault story.
This jives with my own experience, and is horrific.
But more than just expressing sympathy, perhaps men here can share actual, tangible steps they will / already take to bring this to an end. (It is our responsibility to solve it.)
I've tooted this before but, IMHO, it is a pretty good resource in terms of helping men do better offline:
Small things you can do to make a woman feel safer
To help women feel safe, Rosy Edwards has put together this guidance, so you can understand and give support in a way that really helps.
Metro (metro.co.uk)
Annoyingly, I can't find the link that I wanted in terms of men doing better online, so links / suggestions welcome!
@neil @alice The single most important thing men have to do is become uncomfortable for other men to be around. I'm perfectly serious - you have to be the guy the other guys don't want to risk pissing off with their gender views. It's going to suck; you'll fall out with some friends & others will keep trying to get misogynist "jokes" past you without pushback & you'll probably be the only one for a long time - but some guys will get it & this is the only way you'll know who they are.
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R relay@relay.mycrowd.ca shared this topicR relay@relay.infosec.exchange shared this topic
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> Does gender neutral treatment and positive actions conflict?
Yes, I think that they can. I don't think that one redress imbalances or systemic biases (for instance) by ignoring the underlying factors, or by treating everyone the same.
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> Does gender neutral treatment and positive actions conflict?
Yes, I think that they can. I don't think that one redress imbalances or systemic biases (for instance) by ignoring the underlying factors, or by treating everyone the same.
@neil I think that relies on assumptions about the person you talk to. I.e someone genderfluid or in general that isn't cis gender might not like the assumption.
Ignoring gender doesn't mean ignoring the factors for me but they are also reinforced in a way by acting in either direction positive or negative onto someone. -
@neil @alice The single most important thing men have to do is become uncomfortable for other men to be around. I'm perfectly serious - you have to be the guy the other guys don't want to risk pissing off with their gender views. It's going to suck; you'll fall out with some friends & others will keep trying to get misogynist "jokes" past you without pushback & you'll probably be the only one for a long time - but some guys will get it & this is the only way you'll know who they are.
@jwcph @neil @alice
I think i agree if you mean basically losing so called 'friends' by rejecting their sexism, cruel jokes and BS machismo. I did this a few decades ago after my life rounded a corner, and I miss none of those guys.I manage a team of m+f employees and they all seem to be happy with quite a few 10+ year veterans sticking with us - great retention figures. Low/no drama. Building an office culture that rejects any humor that comes at the expense of others is a big part of it.
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@neil @alice The single most important thing men have to do is become uncomfortable for other men to be around. I'm perfectly serious - you have to be the guy the other guys don't want to risk pissing off with their gender views. It's going to suck; you'll fall out with some friends & others will keep trying to get misogynist "jokes" past you without pushback & you'll probably be the only one for a long time - but some guys will get it & this is the only way you'll know who they are.
@jwcph @neil @alice
This! I would also, humbly, add a few other examples:Someone says "hey guys", mention the alternatives (for example to use y'all, everyone, colleagues/friends etc.)
Make sure everyone is heard (aka not talked/shouted over)
Don't gossip about other people
Be honest about your challenges and speak freely and openly about these. Invite others to share **if they want**
Be open to feedback
Most of all: **Believe them**
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@jwcph @neil @alice
This! I would also, humbly, add a few other examples:Someone says "hey guys", mention the alternatives (for example to use y'all, everyone, colleagues/friends etc.)
Make sure everyone is heard (aka not talked/shouted over)
Don't gossip about other people
Be honest about your challenges and speak freely and openly about these. Invite others to share **if they want**
Be open to feedback
Most of all: **Believe them**
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M mrmasterkeyboard@mastodon.social shared this topic
