@meganL asks:
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@meganL asks:
Was reading on new e-cycle classifications in Massachusetts and it occurred to me that cycles probably have more trouble crossing borders than motor vehicles (cars, trucks, vans) do.
There are differences in regulations on motor vehicle equipment between US states and between nations, but I get the impression that they're more inflexible with cycles than cars. But perhaps I'm biased on this.
Q7. What do y'all think?
A7: Interoperability is seen as an important matter for motor vehicles so enabled by mutual recognition of standard (at least on a temporary basis).
For bicycles, this goes way over the head of the bureaucrats. All the attention goes to the fact that they kill 1m persons in accidents every years (wait, maybe that is motor vehicles) and for that reason some people legislate without thinking it thru.
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@meganL asks:
Was reading on new e-cycle classifications in Massachusetts and it occurred to me that cycles probably have more trouble crossing borders than motor vehicles (cars, trucks, vans) do.
There are differences in regulations on motor vehicle equipment between US states and between nations, but I get the impression that they're more inflexible with cycles than cars. But perhaps I'm biased on this.
Q7. What do y'all think?
@meganL @bikenite A7. So much of these new, mostly silly, e-bike regulations seem really hard to enforce (and thus would be selectively enforced) but also rarely enforced. I cross borders infrequently (living in a large state these days)
I'm guessing that many of the car regulations are not enforced during border crossings but more at registration?
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@meganL asks:
Was reading on new e-cycle classifications in Massachusetts and it occurred to me that cycles probably have more trouble crossing borders than motor vehicles (cars, trucks, vans) do.
There are differences in regulations on motor vehicle equipment between US states and between nations, but I get the impression that they're more inflexible with cycles than cars. But perhaps I'm biased on this.
Q7. What do y'all think?
@ascentale @meganL @bikenite
[answering a question re: the difference in difficulty in moving a car/truck/van across borders vs a bike]we imported two ebikes and a car in to Canada when we moved from the US as new permanent residents a couple years ago. At least in terms of import (not just crossing for a visit and then returning), the car was *by far* more complicated. The bikes appeared on the list of stuff we were bringing and rode in the truck. That’s it, really.
The car needed a clean title (no outstanding loans), to be cleared of any recalls (by either having none or having the recall situation remedied), a special import number we had to pay some third party logistics company to get, which we needed to send to the border crossing customs office no less than 72 hours ahead of time, and to have special paperwork done on the US side as well as the Canadian. For the US side we parked on the shoulder of the bridge approach and went in an unmarked door of a nondescript building where we waited in a blank hallway with a bunch of truckers for a long time, hoping but unable to strictly confirm we were in the right place. Once in Canada we needed a safety inspection certificate from Canadian Tire, then new Canadian drivers’ licenses so we could get Canadian car insurance in order to get a new title and complete the import process. The safety inspection cost a couple hundred bucks, and required $800 or so in repairs, some that were maintenance that was probably due, and others that were to meet Canadian requirements, like modifying the running lights standard operation.We can use the same kid seats on our bikes as before, but we are legally required to have car seats in the car that carry the Canadian safety seal, which our US purchased seat did not.
We did get new CAN insurance for our bikes, but most people skip it.
The biggest challenge with moving ebikes cross border is getting them there - no commercial carrier is going to take your already-owned ebike battery on a plane or even a boat. Canada-US is driveable and share the same electric outlets; if you could get a US ebike to Europe somehow with its battery, it’d be very iffy on how to bridge the plug to outlet.
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@meganL asks:
Was reading on new e-cycle classifications in Massachusetts and it occurred to me that cycles probably have more trouble crossing borders than motor vehicles (cars, trucks, vans) do.
There are differences in regulations on motor vehicle equipment between US states and between nations, but I get the impression that they're more inflexible with cycles than cars. But perhaps I'm biased on this.
Q7. What do y'all think?
@ascentale @meganL @bikenite #BikeNite A7: If I remember correctly, some Swiss S-Pedelecs (pedal-assist e-bikes up to 45km/h) are not legal in Germany despite have the S-Pedelec e-bike class, too. But I don't remember why. I think @hb9wnm has such an S-Pedelec, so maybe he can give some details.
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@meganL asks:
Was reading on new e-cycle classifications in Massachusetts and it occurred to me that cycles probably have more trouble crossing borders than motor vehicles (cars, trucks, vans) do.
There are differences in regulations on motor vehicle equipment between US states and between nations, but I get the impression that they're more inflexible with cycles than cars. But perhaps I'm biased on this.
Q7. What do y'all think?
@ascentale @meganL @bikenite A7. The e motos are dangerous but nothing compared to private vehicles and the user is probably most likely to be injured instead of innocent bystanders. I'd prefer we focus on restricting private vehicles more first. #bikenite
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@meganL asks:
Was reading on new e-cycle classifications in Massachusetts and it occurred to me that cycles probably have more trouble crossing borders than motor vehicles (cars, trucks, vans) do.
There are differences in regulations on motor vehicle equipment between US states and between nations, but I get the impression that they're more inflexible with cycles than cars. But perhaps I'm biased on this.
Q7. What do y'all think?
@ascentale @meganL @bikenite #BikeNite A7. While there may be some differences in motor vehicle equipment by state, most of these also fall under the Full Faith and Credit clause of the US Constitution. That being said, differing state regulations is why the Federal Department of Transportation and the National Highway Transportation Safety Administration exist, in the first place, to provide an overarching legal authority which pre-empts or supercedes state regulations.
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@ascentale @meganL @bikenite #BikeNite A7. While there may be some differences in motor vehicle equipment by state, most of these also fall under the Full Faith and Credit clause of the US Constitution. That being said, differing state regulations is why the Federal Department of Transportation and the National Highway Transportation Safety Administration exist, in the first place, to provide an overarching legal authority which pre-empts or supercedes state regulations.
@ascentale Additionally, merely operating a motor vehicle in a different state or nation is usually not the same thing as importing one and registering it in a new jurisdiction.
New Jersey, for instance, can ban the sale of ebikes within NJ, but they cannot prevent me from bringing one into NJ from outside the state, and it's not clear that they can enforce their requirement of having a motor vehicle operating license, should I choose to ride into NJ, since my state has no such requirement.
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@ascentale Additionally, merely operating a motor vehicle in a different state or nation is usually not the same thing as importing one and registering it in a new jurisdiction.
New Jersey, for instance, can ban the sale of ebikes within NJ, but they cannot prevent me from bringing one into NJ from outside the state, and it's not clear that they can enforce their requirement of having a motor vehicle operating license, should I choose to ride into NJ, since my state has no such requirement.
@ascentale California and New York can have their own emissions requirements for cars sold in their states, but they cannot ban me from driving a non CA or NY compliant vehicle in their states.
States can have differing requirements for vehicles registered in their states for passing safety inspections, but they cannot enforce those rules against out-of-state visitors, unless there is a clear safety hazard.
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@meganL asks:
Was reading on new e-cycle classifications in Massachusetts and it occurred to me that cycles probably have more trouble crossing borders than motor vehicles (cars, trucks, vans) do.
There are differences in regulations on motor vehicle equipment between US states and between nations, but I get the impression that they're more inflexible with cycles than cars. But perhaps I'm biased on this.
Q7. What do y'all think?
@ascentale@sfba.social @meganL@mas.to @bikenite@fedigroups.social A7: This isn't really answering your question, but I think the biggest issue—at least in the US—is that a lot of manufacturers sell devices that are compliant with the e-bike regulations but easily modifiable to exceed the legal assisted speed limit. Washington State just enacted a law that specifically excludes such e-bikes. How it's going to be enforced remains to be seen. #BikeNite
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@ascentale @meganL @bikenite A7. The e motos are dangerous but nothing compared to private vehicles and the user is probably most likely to be injured instead of innocent bystanders. I'd prefer we focus on restricting private vehicles more first. #bikenite
@andrew773 Yes, most likely to injure the rider. But if you are doing 80kmph in a stupid place it is very easy to kill some pedestrians too (and this has happened).
Still a lot less dangerous to others than a car, but still dangerous.
Lots of laws are getting pretty worked up about legal (and slightly illegal) ebikes when it's ludicrous illegal emotos that are actually making headlines. Antisocial behaviour on slightly illegal ebikes is not caused by the ebike.
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@meganL asks:
Was reading on new e-cycle classifications in Massachusetts and it occurred to me that cycles probably have more trouble crossing borders than motor vehicles (cars, trucks, vans) do.
There are differences in regulations on motor vehicle equipment between US states and between nations, but I get the impression that they're more inflexible with cycles than cars. But perhaps I'm biased on this.
Q7. What do y'all think?
@ascentale @bikenite A7. Phil had to make my toot more concise and so I think a lot of folks misinterpreted what I was asking. While the MA regulation changes inspired it, when I said 'borders', I meant more than just state borders. For instance, when ordering a replacement for my recumbent, I felt I had to order something EU-compliant just because I want to be able to ride in the EU, even though I don't live there. (next toot)
#BikeNite -
@ascentale @bikenite A7. Phil had to make my toot more concise and so I think a lot of folks misinterpreted what I was asking. While the MA regulation changes inspired it, when I said 'borders', I meant more than just state borders. For instance, when ordering a replacement for my recumbent, I felt I had to order something EU-compliant just because I want to be able to ride in the EU, even though I don't live there. (next toot)
#BikeNite@ascentale @bikenite A7. (cont'd) Cars are more regulated in their manufacture, insurance, & licensing but when it comes to whether you can operate it in another country or state, cycles are also regulated. Manufacturers/ good dealers will not sell you an e-assist that is illegal for where you are ordering from. And when it comes to taking what is legal where you are & riding to another state or country, it feels like there's more scrutiny of cycles right now than souped-up cars. #BikeNite
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@ascentale @meganL @bikenite
#BikeNite A7:
I know in Minnesota, the legislature is currently looking at classifying the difference between legitimate ebikes and emoto's which are electric motorcycles which are sold without enough regulation as if they are ebikes. They are fast and dangerous. The legislation if approved will require that they be regulated, licensed and insured like ICE motorcycles. The legislation is overdue.@MartyCormack @ascentale @bikenite My question comes when the regulations aren't harmonized. So someone buys a cycle that is legal in another state or another country. And they're touring through MN. Do they get turned away at the border because of those regulatory differences? And would a car that has something different under the hood than what's allowed in MN also be turned away? #BikeTooter
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@MartyCormack @ascentale @bikenite My question comes when the regulations aren't harmonized. So someone buys a cycle that is legal in another state or another country. And they're touring through MN. Do they get turned away at the border because of those regulatory differences? And would a car that has something different under the hood than what's allowed in MN also be turned away? #BikeTooter
@meganL @MartyCormack @ascentale @bikenite I'm no expert here but isn't it the case that cars sold in california have different (more stringent) emissions regulations than other states? How does it work now if you drive into that state?
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@MartyCormack @ascentale @bikenite My question comes when the regulations aren't harmonized. So someone buys a cycle that is legal in another state or another country. And they're touring through MN. Do they get turned away at the border because of those regulatory differences? And would a car that has something different under the hood than what's allowed in MN also be turned away? #BikeTooter
@meganL @MartyCormack @ascentale @bikenite I don't think either gets turned away at the border. If the bike gets pulled over and is then found to be illegal, it gets confiscated and perhaps destroyed. If the car gets pulled over and found to be non-compliant, it maybe gets a warning or a fix-it ticket, or if it's something that can't be fixed, impounded and possibly destroyed.
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@meganL @MartyCormack @ascentale @bikenite I'm no expert here but isn't it the case that cars sold in california have different (more stringent) emissions regulations than other states? How does it work now if you drive into that state?
@dan @meganL @MartyCormack @ascentale @bikenite I thought that meant most US cars met california regs, but some models might not be available in CA?
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@meganL @MartyCormack @ascentale @bikenite I'm no expert here but isn't it the case that cars sold in california have different (more stringent) emissions regulations than other states? How does it work now if you drive into that state?
@dan @MartyCormack @ascentale @bikenite A7. Yes, that's true. People can drive through CA even if their car is not compliant (although there may be limits...if there's tons of black smoke they'd probably get talked to). People are allowed to continue to drive cars with other plates in CA for 90 days. If they are residing in CA and have not registered their car in CA by the end of the 90 days, there are consequences, but I'm not sure which. #BikeNite
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@meganL asks:
Was reading on new e-cycle classifications in Massachusetts and it occurred to me that cycles probably have more trouble crossing borders than motor vehicles (cars, trucks, vans) do.
There are differences in regulations on motor vehicle equipment between US states and between nations, but I get the impression that they're more inflexible with cycles than cars. But perhaps I'm biased on this.
Q7. What do y'all think?
#BikeNite A7 The US Consumer Product Safety Commission defined "Low-speed electric bicycles" as 750W and 20mph, in... 2002? And it supersedes state laws that are more restrictive (in stores, if perhaps not on the street?)
https://uscode.house.gov/view.xhtml?req=granuleid:USC-prelim-title15-section2085&num=0&edition=prelim -
@ascentale @meganL @bikenite
[answering a question re: the difference in difficulty in moving a car/truck/van across borders vs a bike]we imported two ebikes and a car in to Canada when we moved from the US as new permanent residents a couple years ago. At least in terms of import (not just crossing for a visit and then returning), the car was *by far* more complicated. The bikes appeared on the list of stuff we were bringing and rode in the truck. That’s it, really.
The car needed a clean title (no outstanding loans), to be cleared of any recalls (by either having none or having the recall situation remedied), a special import number we had to pay some third party logistics company to get, which we needed to send to the border crossing customs office no less than 72 hours ahead of time, and to have special paperwork done on the US side as well as the Canadian. For the US side we parked on the shoulder of the bridge approach and went in an unmarked door of a nondescript building where we waited in a blank hallway with a bunch of truckers for a long time, hoping but unable to strictly confirm we were in the right place. Once in Canada we needed a safety inspection certificate from Canadian Tire, then new Canadian drivers’ licenses so we could get Canadian car insurance in order to get a new title and complete the import process. The safety inspection cost a couple hundred bucks, and required $800 or so in repairs, some that were maintenance that was probably due, and others that were to meet Canadian requirements, like modifying the running lights standard operation.We can use the same kid seats on our bikes as before, but we are legally required to have car seats in the car that carry the Canadian safety seal, which our US purchased seat did not.
We did get new CAN insurance for our bikes, but most people skip it.
The biggest challenge with moving ebikes cross border is getting them there - no commercial carrier is going to take your already-owned ebike battery on a plane or even a boat. Canada-US is driveable and share the same electric outlets; if you could get a US ebike to Europe somehow with its battery, it’d be very iffy on how to bridge the plug to outlet.
@cassey @ascentale @meganL #BikeNite A7 most e-bike (and laptop/USB) chargers accept a wide AC voltage range (100-240-ish, it's on the label) and just need a compatible cord or adapted plug. This can also be handy if you want to charge on j1772 car charging stations. Crossing state lines in the US on any bike though, is usually a bridge owned by two state DOTs
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@MartyCormack @ascentale @bikenite My question comes when the regulations aren't harmonized. So someone buys a cycle that is legal in another state or another country. And they're touring through MN. Do they get turned away at the border because of those regulatory differences? And would a car that has something different under the hood than what's allowed in MN also be turned away? #BikeTooter
@meganL @MartyCormack @ascentale @bikenite Isn't it usually the case where ownership isn't illegal, but usage on public roads is. So you could likely cross borders without a check and perhaps never even get caught, but should an enforcement officer choose to take a look once you're out and about you are then acting illegally.
