US states should start withholding federal tax money because it is, in fact, taxation without representation all over again -- just internal rather than external this time.
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@codinghorror I send my federal income taxes directly to the federal government, my state couldn't withhold them if it wanted to.
@BoydStephenSmithJr "how much federal tax revenue is paid directly from the states to the federal government, not talking about individual taxpayers, please break down in excruciating detail with only the most reliable, well respected, trusted data sources and use most recent data possible; thank you. Don't return until you have an answer that is unassailable from any source given your comprehensive citations. Thank you!" will return momentarily, I appreciate your question.
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@codinghorror@infosec.exchange states don’t control federal taxes, they are payed directly from tax payers to the federal government
@a "how much federal tax revenue is paid directly from the states to the federal government, not talking about individual taxpayers, please break down in excruciating detail with only the most reliable, well respected, trusted data sources and use most recent data possible; thank you. Don't return until you have an answer that is unassailable from any source given your comprehensive citations. Thank you!" will return momentarily, I appreciate your question.
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@codinghorror surely you know this is not mechanically possible. States are not a party to any transaction involving the payment of federal taxes.
@joeld @codinghorror this constantly comes up and while there are payments that the states directly make to the federal government, there's no way for people to withhold payment of taxes to the feds. You could ask your payroll department to do it and then fail to file a tax return. But you will be taken to court for that and will not have a good time.
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@a "how much federal tax revenue is paid directly from the states to the federal government, not talking about individual taxpayers, please break down in excruciating detail with only the most reliable, well respected, trusted data sources and use most recent data possible; thank you. Don't return until you have an answer that is unassailable from any source given your comprehensive citations. Thank you!" will return momentarily, I appreciate your question.
@codinghorror@infosec.exchange that’s a really rude answered. No need for further reply from you thanks. It was my mistake to engage in this conversation.
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US states should start withholding federal tax money because it is, in fact, taxation without representation all over again -- just internal rather than external this time. With respect, federal government, either you properly represent these states (SCOTUS, Senate, etc), or get your state tax revenue elsewhere. Plenty of states to choose from.
@codinghorror once you unpack how the U.S. system actually works, the situation is more complex. if states were to start withholding federal taxes, it would amount to de facto nullification or fiscal secession, which would trigger immediate constitutional crisis I guess.
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@joeld @codinghorror this constantly comes up and while there are payments that the states directly make to the federal government, there's no way for people to withhold payment of taxes to the feds. You could ask your payroll department to do it and then fail to file a tax return. But you will be taken to court for that and will not have a good time.
@stinerman @codinghorror right, anyone who has filed a tax return should know this. I think people get confused by seeing stats about “which states send more in taxes to the feds than they get back”
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@joeld "how much federal tax revenue is paid directly from the states to the federal government, not talking about individual taxpayers, please break down in excruciating detail with only the most reliable, well respected, trusted data sources and use most recent data possible; thank you. Don't return until you have an answer that is unassailable from any source given your comprehensive citations. Thank you!" will return momentarily, I appreciate your question.
@codinghorror pretty sure the answer is $0
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@codinghorror pretty sure the answer is $0
@joeld Let's find out, my friend! At SEATAC so might be delayed but answering you is my highest priority right now. Let me see if I can get airplane Wi-Fi. I can also take a call with you, if you want.
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@joeld Let's find out, my friend! At SEATAC so might be delayed but answering you is my highest priority right now. Let me see if I can get airplane Wi-Fi. I can also take a call with you, if you want.
@joeld People usually remember when they meet me.
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@joeld People usually remember when they meet me.
@codinghorror hey I would enjoy that and it would be friendly!
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@codinghorror hey I would enjoy that and it would be friendly!
@joeld it's always friendly and quite memorable. I'm here to learn the nuances, not to be "right" but I come with a lot of citations and data.
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@joeld it's always friendly and quite memorable. I'm here to learn the nuances, not to be "right" but I come with a lot of citations and data.
@codinghorror joel at jdueck.net
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@BoydStephenSmithJr "how much federal tax revenue is paid directly from the states to the federal government, not talking about individual taxpayers, please break down in excruciating detail with only the most reliable, well respected, trusted data sources and use most recent data possible; thank you. Don't return until you have an answer that is unassailable from any source given your comprehensive citations. Thank you!" will return momentarily, I appreciate your question.
@codinghorror I didn't ask a question. *plonk*
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@codinghorror once you unpack how the U.S. system actually works, the situation is more complex. if states were to start withholding federal taxes, it would amount to de facto nullification or fiscal secession, which would trigger immediate constitutional crisis I guess.
@vivante again, the state is not a party to the transaction so there is no mechanical way for them to withhold federal taxes.
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@vivante again, the state is not a party to the transaction so there is no mechanical way for them to withhold federal taxes.
@joeld I think in the US it is more like an information gap. that is exactly what the data shows but I am outside the US so maybe I am wrong with that.
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@joeld I think in the US it is more like an information gap. that is exactly what the data shows but I am outside the US so maybe I am wrong with that.
@vivante when you say “it is more like an information gap” what is the “it” in that sentence?
More generally, when my business files a federal income tax return with the IRS and the business owes taxes, the IRS then withdraws the owed money directly from the business bank account and it goes into the US Treasury. (Same process for individual income taxes.) Where does the state ever have an opportunity of intervening in this transaction?
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@vivante when you say “it is more like an information gap” what is the “it” in that sentence?
More generally, when my business files a federal income tax return with the IRS and the business owes taxes, the IRS then withdraws the owed money directly from the business bank account and it goes into the US Treasury. (Same process for individual income taxes.) Where does the state ever have an opportunity of intervening in this transaction?
@joeld In the absence of a "mechanical" middleman like a payroll department, the state’s opportunity to intervene shifts from the start of the transaction to its residue. It = transaction
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@joeld In the absence of a "mechanical" middleman like a payroll department, the state’s opportunity to intervene shifts from the start of the transaction to its residue. It = transaction
@vivante I freely admit I do not understand what you are saying. The state government never handles or holds monies owed to the federal government so they have no way to withhold those monies.
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@vivante I freely admit I do not understand what you are saying. The state government never handles or holds monies owed to the federal government so they have no way to withhold those monies.
@joeld It is largely true that the current financial infrastructure of the US is designed to keep state and federal money in separate "lanes." but it seems that under Trump there are no "normal" operations anymore. My view from outside the US.
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@joeld It is largely true that the current financial infrastructure of the US is designed to keep state and federal money in separate "lanes." but it seems that under Trump there are no "normal" operations anymore. My view from outside the US.
@vivante ok well that’s like saying the current financial structure is designed to keep your grocer’s money and your lawyer’s money in separate lanes. There is no such “design”; there simply was never any reason to mingle those monies. nothing about the way we pay taxes has changed.
