With all the tiktok drama I have been telling people Mastodon is still here and kicking!!
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For one thing, if your app is popular it can be because the UI is easy to use and the design is excellent.
Equally important? You can only build diverse, resilient communities if you can bring a wide range of users together. That cross-pollination between otherwise desperate communities is the magic of social media for me.
I often call the fedi "a nice college town" and it even has an HOA (an HOA that gets huffy and offended if you point out they are acting like an HOA)
I understand the fear and revulsion some feel from the words
"we need to make the fediverse popular"
Most of the time when apps push to be popular it's about making money, it's about converting eyeballs to IPO as @pluralistic has so clearly described in his theory of #enshittification
And YET: "popular" also means more egalitarian "for everyone" --I don't need to see a conversation about 'Italian Football Bloopers', but I want it to be here too.
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I think most people here find that kind of tracking and filtering a little creepy? But, it was also very convenient.
Over here we are like "follow two-dozen hash tags, and 300 people and then MAYBE your feed will be kind of interesting." Alternately? Here is the fire hose of your server's feed with 200 posts from the same person. Or the global feed which is just chaos.
Can we respect the art and craft of curating content? Can we make it a human thing?
Yep I'd like my own private bird dog algorithm to sniff out feeds that match my tastes. It could even run on my own desktop computer and not bother anyone else. Trading them like baseball cards does sound fun.
Regarding OP question about why Mastodon is still small:
1. Obvious network effects. Nobody's there so nobody's there. This will slowly improve. (But the people who *are* here are really interesting!)
2. Not a business so no marketing.
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@futurebird @bovaz @aurochs I genuinely wonder as well whether Mastodon is necessarily always the best gateway for newbies joining the Fediverse?
For some people, it might be better to point them to Pixelfed.social to get them started. Or if they're moving off TikTok, perhaps even loops.video once it becomes a bit more mature? ( @dansup has done a great job with them IMHO, btw!)
Perhaps Piefed or Lemmy if they want to discuss a particular topic?Even if mastodon isn't the gateway they have power over what features are "standard" -- for example quote tweets existed for years before they were added to mastodon. But they are only now gaining traction.
I'm not on .social I'm on this little side server, but the choices there still mater. And maybe this is a weakness of the whole system.
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Right now the people we choose to follow are doing that curation. And it works OK. If you follow enough people. If you weed out your list on the regular.
Most people do not want to do this just to see some social media posts and relax. I think it's a mistake to act like this is unreasonable. And it's a disservice to people posting great content here who are invisible. Why make good content if no one will see it?
I could be easier. It would make this a more welcoming place.
@futurebird
@bovaz @aurochs
I like the ideas in this thread! I have been planning to make a fork of GotoSocial with some sort of open-source algorithm (mostly because I can't keep up with my home feed). But, I thought that maybe this would be "not well received" by the people in the fediverse.
This thread has encouraged me to start (also the fact that I was laid off on Monday and so now have time to work on it). I like all of these ideas and will try to incorporate them (though I will start as simple as possible).
Thanks! -
Yep I'd like my own private bird dog algorithm to sniff out feeds that match my tastes. It could even run on my own desktop computer and not bother anyone else. Trading them like baseball cards does sound fun.
Regarding OP question about why Mastodon is still small:
1. Obvious network effects. Nobody's there so nobody's there. This will slowly improve. (But the people who *are* here are really interesting!)
2. Not a business so no marketing.
The fedi is slowly becoming a NORC (naturally occurring retirement community)
Only facebook has an older userbase.
And being more old than young that isn't a personal problem. But I wish there was more interest in making it a place younger people would care about. And that would mean listening to them.
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What if we had a kind of mini-app where users could create their own algorithms and then share combine and trade them?
I might design a mix of hashtags, users, and hand picked posts and call it "Ant News" someone else might pick a group of users and hash tags and create "Italian Football Bloopers"
Then we could share and rate these feeds and new users could just click on the popular ones?
@futurebird @aurochs Have you seen FediAlgo from @cryptadamist?: https://fedialgo.thms.uk
https://mastodon.social/@jandi/115720315643131726 -
Isn't the Mastodon app on Google Play an official one? I've always used that on mobile and it works great.
On PC I just open my instance on my browser
@Beldarak @hfinyow @taylorlorenz I think so. And I never used the official twitter app. There were plenty of alternative apps for twitter and many evolved to mastodon and bluesky...
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With all the tiktok drama I have been telling people Mastodon is still here and kicking!! I love this app and I really think the decentralized model is the best for social media.
Still, people don’t want to join! What do you think Mastodon’s biggest barriers are to courting new users? What could be done to improve the product and grow the user base in a positive way?
@taylorlorenz something i remember vividly is an influential account that i followed on twitter back in 2018 or so openly mocking mastodon users as ugly dorks, and discounting mastodon out of hand for that reason. and i really do think that many people who still avoid the fediverse because they don't want to be seen associating with "those people"
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The fedi is slowly becoming a NORC (naturally occurring retirement community)
Only facebook has an older userbase.
And being more old than young that isn't a personal problem. But I wish there was more interest in making it a place younger people would care about. And that would mean listening to them.
@futurebird @Phosphenes @bovaz @aurochs These young people just need to learn the value of wearing an onion in your belt.
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Right now the people we choose to follow are doing that curation. And it works OK. If you follow enough people. If you weed out your list on the regular.
Most people do not want to do this just to see some social media posts and relax. I think it's a mistake to act like this is unreasonable. And it's a disservice to people posting great content here who are invisible. Why make good content if no one will see it?
I could be easier. It would make this a more welcoming place.
@futurebird @bovaz @aurochs You eventually have to decide if it's a conversation or entertainment.
(You're presenting as so completely on Team Entertainment that it's not clear you're aware Team Conversation is an option.)
Much of the design and much of the "not welcoming" is because Team Conversation's objectives generally include "this is not entertainment"; that is, it's a social interaction rather than a performance.
"Social media", commercially, exists to confuse that distinction.
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The fedi is slowly becoming a NORC (naturally occurring retirement community)
Only facebook has an older userbase.
And being more old than young that isn't a personal problem. But I wish there was more interest in making it a place younger people would care about. And that would mean listening to them.
The young people I know are mostly about phones, multimedia and each other. Less typing, more video, and easy sharing. So TikTok was a good fit.
But when it comes to data privacy and censorship, they are unconcerned lambs to the slaughter. Fedi's #1 selling point is lost on most of them (and US adults too, to be fair).
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The fedi is slowly becoming a NORC (naturally occurring retirement community)
Only facebook has an older userbase.
And being more old than young that isn't a personal problem. But I wish there was more interest in making it a place younger people would care about. And that would mean listening to them.
@futurebird@sauropods.win @Phosphenes@mastodon.social @aurochs@todon.eu I'm going to say this in the wrong way:
These young people don't know how to use their phones and computers, their only interaction is to swipe on the screen one way or another.
And, to sort of reply to myself, so what? That just means that UI/UX for fedi clients should be redesigned with those patterns in mind when those apps are being built, if the goal is usability for the younger generations. (I don't want to sound like I'm saying this would be in any way easy, because I have an inkling of how hard it would actually be). Then at least an obstacle to adoption would be removed. -
The young people I know are mostly about phones, multimedia and each other. Less typing, more video, and easy sharing. So TikTok was a good fit.
But when it comes to data privacy and censorship, they are unconcerned lambs to the slaughter. Fedi's #1 selling point is lost on most of them (and US adults too, to be fair).
I think "no ads" is a much more popular selling point than "privacy"
I mean ... even for me, it's the quality of the content and people (the fact that it's lively here) that matters most, after that? It's that there are "no ads"
The privacy is nice, but I don't think many people care about this much, or as much as we should.
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With all the tiktok drama I have been telling people Mastodon is still here and kicking!! I love this app and I really think the decentralized model is the best for social media.
Still, people don’t want to join! What do you think Mastodon’s biggest barriers are to courting new users? What could be done to improve the product and grow the user base in a positive way?
@taylorlorenz I don't think many servers are courting users. "If you built it they, will come" hasn't worked that well for the #fediverse
We should learn from the rapid growth of the #forkiverse server, which was due to courting new users via a joint podcast.
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What if we had a kind of mini-app where users could create their own algorithms and then share combine and trade them?
I might design a mix of hashtags, users, and hand picked posts and call it "Ant News" someone else might pick a group of users and hash tags and create "Italian Football Bloopers"
Then we could share and rate these feeds and new users could just click on the popular ones?
@futurebird @aurochs bluesky had starter packs that were really helpful, I found many scientist and researchers this way, which then also found in Mastodon, but one by one over time.
Personal starter packs that are cultivated by fediverse users, as part of their profile perhaps
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With all the tiktok drama I have been telling people Mastodon is still here and kicking!! I love this app and I really think the decentralized model is the best for social media.
Still, people don’t want to join! What do you think Mastodon’s biggest barriers are to courting new users? What could be done to improve the product and grow the user base in a positive way?
@taylorlorenz I also think it would be cool to be able to see interactions I've shared with other users. Let's say someone requests to follow me but I don't remember if I've interacted with them before, I'd love to see what posts we've spoken on.
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@futurebird @bovaz @aurochs You eventually have to decide if it's a conversation or entertainment.
(You're presenting as so completely on Team Entertainment that it's not clear you're aware Team Conversation is an option.)
Much of the design and much of the "not welcoming" is because Team Conversation's objectives generally include "this is not entertainment"; that is, it's a social interaction rather than a performance.
"Social media", commercially, exists to confuse that distinction.
@graydon@canada.masto.host @futurebird@sauropods.win @aurochs@todon.eu I'm genuinely curious, so I'm not asking this to sound facetious: do you really have to make that decision? I mean, I see it in the moment-to-moment interaction/use of the platform/app, but I'm not convinced I see it in the design of the platform/technology itself (maybe in clients, sure). Could you explain what you mean (or point to some write up where it's explained already if you have it)? -
The fedi is slowly becoming a NORC (naturally occurring retirement community)
Only facebook has an older userbase.
And being more old than young that isn't a personal problem. But I wish there was more interest in making it a place younger people would care about. And that would mean listening to them.
@futurebird @Phosphenes @bovaz @aurochs That hits me right in the old.
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With all the tiktok drama I have been telling people Mastodon is still here and kicking!! I love this app and I really think the decentralized model is the best for social media.
Still, people don’t want to join! What do you think Mastodon’s biggest barriers are to courting new users? What could be done to improve the product and grow the user base in a positive way?
@taylorlorenz I think part of it is the pr campaign other platforms have waged against it, saying things like there's some sort of eldritch signing-up process that involves Byzantine bureaucracy, and part that we need cool people to show the way, as we saw in the case of #forkiverse their audience in.
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I think "no ads" is a much more popular selling point than "privacy"
I mean ... even for me, it's the quality of the content and people (the fact that it's lively here) that matters most, after that? It's that there are "no ads"
The privacy is nice, but I don't think many people care about this much, or as much as we should.
True no ads is great. But that leads to the question of, how do we get a high quality modern-feeling UI without an economy?
Ads are a f'ed up business model IMO. They create political pressure toward cowardice. And the 'marketplace of ideas' is totally corrupted by: marketing.
