Vim's lead maintainer has fully lost his goddamn mind
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@mirabilos @KatS @lhp @barubary @AndrewRadev
Does it have vi keybindings?
I use vim over vi because 1) syntax highlighting, and 2) multistep undo.
I do not give a flying frack about anything else. I started using vi in 1992ish.... I switched to vim a few years later. I am not thrilled about changing my finger memory.
And as always.... does it exist in #FreeBSD ports?
For those playing along at home, I am trying out helix, on the advice of the advice of a friend.
All I have ever wanted is vi + colors.
@nuintari @KatS @lhp @barubary @AndrewRadev it doesn’t. I’m sorry I don’t have a good recommendation for
vi-ish users. (nviis also not good because, at least on GNU systems, when you edit a file with a byte that is not valid in the current locale, it truncates the file there with an error message at save time, with no way to recover.)viis not a favourite of mine (I know enough to get by but I’d often rather useedinstead, or indeedjupp, or if it must bemcedit, just notpicoor GNU’s clone thereof), which is why I have no idea about others that may exist. -
@mirabilos First impressions:
- website doesn't work over https
- there is no documentation (for
jupp, that is; there is ajoeman page, but it says it's a different "flavor") - "ASCII text screen editor" doesn't sound great (you need a special option just to make 8-bit charsets work; Unicode/UTF-8 aren't even mentioned)
- it doesn't support regular expressions
- the search/replace interface is broken (according to the documentation, it prompts separately for the search pattern and the replacement part)
@barubary some of that are admittedly good points.
website doesn't work over https
That’s only semi-true for the old main mirror (it does, but TLSv1); there’s a TLSv1.2+ mirror
mbsd.evolvis.orgwhich the packagers just need to plug into the homepage fields.It also does work over plain
http, which is a bonus, especially for the “smallweb”.there is no documentation (for jupp, that is; there is a joe man page, but it says it's a different "flavor")
Yes. Writing a proper
mdoc(7)page forjuppis on my TODO. To my excuse, it has been this way when I forked it offjoe, whosejstarflavour is similarly underdocumented, and the keybindings are documented in the on-line help (press Ctrl-J once you started it), which I extended, are very similar to editors like DR DOS’ or Borland’s, and thejupprcfile is not hard to read to figure out things either.I know, all merely excuses, and, yes, it is on my TODO. (The problem being, I do so much FOSS, and I also have to earn a living… you know.)
"ASCII text screen editor" doesn't sound great (you need a special option just to make 8-bit charsets work; Unicode/UTF-8 aren't even mentioned)
Hmm, that’s probably old docs? Maybe from CP/M times? It runs in UTF-8 mode by default. If your display charset does not match the locale’s, you can export
JOECHARMAPto override it, and^OEsets the charset of the file (so you can even edit files not in the current display charset).it doesn't support regular expressions
This is plain wrong. I use regular expressions in it daily, especially to fix up erroneous whitespace at EOL/EOF (which I bound to the
^K]shortcut so I don’t have to type it all the time).The 2.x version for DOS even supports them, up to a point.
the search/replace interface is broken (according to the documentation, it prompts separately for the search pattern and the replacement part)
Where is that “broken”? The majority of editors does that, and it saves having to reserve a char for separator, just pressing Enter (here twice, as before the replacement pattern it also asks for options, like, whether to actually replace or just search (with a suitable default based on the key combination you used to invoke it), case sensitivity, whether to limit to the highlighted block, etc.) will do.
But thank you for an honest attempt at a first review, and for even considering doing that much, and my apologies for the website and manpage issues.
(Edit: (hopefully) improved Markdown rendering. I hate Markdown.)
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@eljojo @penny @dirtside where did Penny lack in engagement? Being pessimistic about your ability to use conversation for any alternative conclusion isn't a poor decision. There's more than enough people applying rigour before despising AI intrusion. You can't just label every aversion to AI as prematurely taken bigotry. It's an aversion of exhaustion for many, and you don't seem to know how to embrace that exhaustion in others.
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@barubary some of that are admittedly good points.
website doesn't work over https
That’s only semi-true for the old main mirror (it does, but TLSv1); there’s a TLSv1.2+ mirror
mbsd.evolvis.orgwhich the packagers just need to plug into the homepage fields.It also does work over plain
http, which is a bonus, especially for the “smallweb”.there is no documentation (for jupp, that is; there is a joe man page, but it says it's a different "flavor")
Yes. Writing a proper
mdoc(7)page forjuppis on my TODO. To my excuse, it has been this way when I forked it offjoe, whosejstarflavour is similarly underdocumented, and the keybindings are documented in the on-line help (press Ctrl-J once you started it), which I extended, are very similar to editors like DR DOS’ or Borland’s, and thejupprcfile is not hard to read to figure out things either.I know, all merely excuses, and, yes, it is on my TODO. (The problem being, I do so much FOSS, and I also have to earn a living… you know.)
"ASCII text screen editor" doesn't sound great (you need a special option just to make 8-bit charsets work; Unicode/UTF-8 aren't even mentioned)
Hmm, that’s probably old docs? Maybe from CP/M times? It runs in UTF-8 mode by default. If your display charset does not match the locale’s, you can export
JOECHARMAPto override it, and^OEsets the charset of the file (so you can even edit files not in the current display charset).it doesn't support regular expressions
This is plain wrong. I use regular expressions in it daily, especially to fix up erroneous whitespace at EOL/EOF (which I bound to the
^K]shortcut so I don’t have to type it all the time).The 2.x version for DOS even supports them, up to a point.
the search/replace interface is broken (according to the documentation, it prompts separately for the search pattern and the replacement part)
Where is that “broken”? The majority of editors does that, and it saves having to reserve a char for separator, just pressing Enter (here twice, as before the replacement pattern it also asks for options, like, whether to actually replace or just search (with a suitable default based on the key combination you used to invoke it), case sensitivity, whether to limit to the highlighted block, etc.) will do.
But thank you for an honest attempt at a first review, and for even considering doing that much, and my apologies for the website and manpage issues.
(Edit: (hopefully) improved Markdown rendering. I hate Markdown.)
@mirabilos Re: regex, how do you do set union or alternation, a.k.a
|in most regex flavors? I did see the Kleene star (spelled\+for some reason) in the manual, but|was missing. -
@mirabilos Re: regex, how do you do set union or alternation, a.k.a
|in most regex flavors? I did see the Kleene star (spelled\+for some reason) in the manual, but|was missing.@barubary yeah, alternation doesn’t exist, similar to POSIX BRE which also lacks it.
The spelling is “everything special with backslash” so that everything not backslash-prefixed is just a normal string, which is unusual if all you know is unixoid RE flavours, but workable. (The on-line help card that appears when you press
^Jwhile in the RE prompt explains it, too.) -
@eljojo @penny @dirtside where did Penny lack in engagement? Being pessimistic about your ability to use conversation for any alternative conclusion isn't a poor decision. There's more than enough people applying rigour before despising AI intrusion. You can't just label every aversion to AI as prematurely taken bigotry. It's an aversion of exhaustion for many, and you don't seem to know how to embrace that exhaustion in others.
@goose penny literally threw a copy paste and then blocked me without caring what I had to say about it. LOL -- not too long after attacking me that my opinion was impossible to change L O L
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@barubary yeah, alternation doesn’t exist, similar to POSIX BRE which also lacks it.
The spelling is “everything special with backslash” so that everything not backslash-prefixed is just a normal string, which is unusual if all you know is unixoid RE flavours, but workable. (The on-line help card that appears when you press
^Jwhile in the RE prompt explains it, too.)@barubary (just checked,
nviuses POSIX BRE, at least by default) -
Vim's lead maintainer has fully lost his goddamn mind
@AndrewRadev for dog's sake! I'm getting so fed up with Jet Brain's slipping standards due to their focus on (and undoubtedly use of) AI that I was gonna switch to vim (or maybe neovim).
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@barubary yeah, alternation doesn’t exist, similar to POSIX BRE which also lacks it.
The spelling is “everything special with backslash” so that everything not backslash-prefixed is just a normal string, which is unusual if all you know is unixoid RE flavours, but workable. (The on-line help card that appears when you press
^Jwhile in the RE prompt explains it, too.)@mirabilos That's what I mean. If it doesn't have at least
|and*in some form, it's not regular. -
@mirabilos That's what I mean. If it doesn't have at least
|and*in some form, it's not regular.@barubary ok, then let me restate as, it’s got search and replace operations that are a superset of POSIX Basic Regular Expressions.
It has
\[…](POSIX[…]), if that suffices. -
@theorangetheme @KatS @barubary @AndrewRadev I do wonder if it would make sense to mail rms and ask him to not allow it? I can't stand the guy, at all, he held free software back by decades by being <we all know what he is>, but he has veto powers in GNU and might be swayed my moral arguments...
@lhp @KatS @barubary @AndrewRadev That sounds entirely sensible.
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@barubary ok, then let me restate as, it’s got search and replace operations that are a superset of POSIX Basic Regular Expressions.
It has
\[…](POSIX[…]), if that suffices.@barubary I read a bit about CS-theoretical REs, and apparently it does not suffice. Oh well.
Then it’s an RE subset just like POSIX BRE.
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@barubary I read a bit about CS-theoretical REs, and apparently it does not suffice. Oh well.
Then it’s an RE subset just like POSIX BRE.
@barubary (but then, in practice I even call shellglobs REs, even if very limited ones)
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