No, opposing LLMs isn't "purity culture."
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(What do I mean when I say I'm not open to changing my mind on the issue at the moment? I mean that when I've tried to be open minded, I get flooded with bad-faith bullshit and outright propaganda. My being closed-minded here is a temporary and reasoned position about conserving my own energies, and not letting people DDoS my rationality. I don't think that the Discourse
around LLMs is *currently* at a place where opposition to boosterism benefits from open-mindedness.)@xgranade
"I don't think that the Discourse around LLMs is *currently* at a place where opposition to boosterism benefits from open-mindedness." -
(What do I mean when I say I'm not open to changing my mind on the issue at the moment? I mean that when I've tried to be open minded, I get flooded with bad-faith bullshit and outright propaganda. My being closed-minded here is a temporary and reasoned position about conserving my own energies, and not letting people DDoS my rationality. I don't think that the Discourse
around LLMs is *currently* at a place where opposition to boosterism benefits from open-mindedness.)@xgranade in a better world, there is a use for having a bear (who made maul you, so careful when using the bear), there are identifiable, simple-use benefits based on the merits of a bear.
But in this world we live in now, not everyone needs a bear (who may maul you so careful when using the bear) at home, at work, at school, in your fridge, in your phone, your browser, etc.
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No, opposing LLMs isn't "purity culture." I've seen this now from quite a few different people, and I disagree vehemently. It is good, actually, to have moral principles and hold to them, even when people with more money than you find said principles annoying.
@xgranade
Current LLM technology being shoved into everything with wild abandon and little oversight for a technology that is _still experimental and not mature_, is like committing to Main on Friday: It won't blow up on you every time, but it will blow up on you. -
@xgranade@wandering.shop @dave@alvarado.social the current speaker of the house keeps tab on how often his son fucking masturbates
fuck off with "purity culture" to refer to people who are trying to keep culture alive... while many of the same people are also castigated by the actual purity culture fuckers for "sexual deviancy". -
No, opposing LLMs isn't "purity culture." I've seen this now from quite a few different people, and I disagree vehemently. It is good, actually, to have moral principles and hold to them, even when people with more money than you find said principles annoying.
@xgranade It could only be "purity culture" if we were denying ourselves something useful to put ourselves at a disadvantage for moral reasons. That's not what's happening.
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No, it's twisted, invasive, and gross. Even for a conservative Christian household, that's weird and puritanical AF. The highly conservative Christians I grew up around would have objected, been icked out, and said it's between that person and their god.
And to be clear: I am talking about a full on climate denialist, evolution denialist, abusive and controlling, almost-church-deacon dad, and a mom who literally screamed like a tea kettle and then broke plates, ripped out her own hair, and tore her clothes while scream-chanting "no child of mine, no child of mine" after I told her I didn't believe anymore.
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No, it's twisted, invasive, and gross. Even for a conservative Christian household, that's weird and puritanical AF. The highly conservative Christians I grew up around would have objected, been icked out, and said it's between that person and their god.
And to be clear: I am talking about a full on climate denialist, evolution denialist, abusive and controlling, almost-church-deacon dad, and a mom who literally screamed like a tea kettle and then broke plates, ripped out her own hair, and tore her clothes while scream-chanting "no child of mine, no child of mine" after I told her I didn't believe anymore.
@hosford42 @aud @xgranade @dave
That's the point
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@xgranade My dude is torching his own credibility to use an LLM to check for typos.
TYPOS.
Regular spell checkers and grammar checkers are, in fact, up to the task, after many decades of careful refinement.
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@hosford42 @xgranade they have a lower than 50% failure rate while not having a bazillion ethical consequences that’s for sure.
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No, opposing LLMs isn't "purity culture." I've seen this now from quite a few different people, and I disagree vehemently. It is good, actually, to have moral principles and hold to them, even when people with more money than you find said principles annoying.
@xgranade@wandering.shop opposing LLMs is an integrity culture, not purity.
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@xgranade My dude is torching his own credibility to use an LLM to check for typos.
TYPOS.
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No, opposing LLMs isn't "purity culture." I've seen this now from quite a few different people, and I disagree vehemently. It is good, actually, to have moral principles and hold to them, even when people with more money than you find said principles annoying.
they want you to be compliant, not critical.
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No, opposing LLMs isn't "purity culture." I've seen this now from quite a few different people, and I disagree vehemently. It is good, actually, to have moral principles and hold to them, even when people with more money than you find said principles annoying.
@xgranade That take reminds me of the whole boycotts, strikes and protests are a privilege take that was going around in 2020/2021.
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Hell, if you disagree with me and think I'm wrong on the merits, then by all means make that argument! (Preferably not in my mentions, I'm tired of this whole debacle and am not personally open to changing my mind on LLMs right now.)
But "purity culture" isn't an argument, it's an appeal to the idea that holding principles is *bad*.
@xgranade Yes this! This! This is like the "radical centrists" (in Michael Hobbes and other folks usage) who spent years talking about abstract principals of "free speech" to rail against any public criticism of people saying odious things to avoid talking about whether those odious words mattered and what impact they had.
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No, opposing LLMs isn't "purity culture." I've seen this now from quite a few different people, and I disagree vehemently. It is good, actually, to have moral principles and hold to them, even when people with more money than you find said principles annoying.
@xgranade it depends so much, I mean I can oppose screwdrivers being used to drive nails into the wall
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@xgranade it depends so much, I mean I can oppose screwdrivers being used to drive nails into the wall
@codinghorror Sure, but we're not talking about "which tool is best for driving a nail that I own into a wall that I own," we're talking about "is it ethical to use a technology built on fascist ideology and stolen work, that carries unconscionable environmental costs, and that's used to disrupt labor movements to perform a task that that technology is fundamentally unsuited to?"
It's quite fair to have a very firm "no" by way of answer to the second question.
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@codinghorror Sure, but we're not talking about "which tool is best for driving a nail that I own into a wall that I own," we're talking about "is it ethical to use a technology built on fascist ideology and stolen work, that carries unconscionable environmental costs, and that's used to disrupt labor movements to perform a task that that technology is fundamentally unsuited to?"
It's quite fair to have a very firm "no" by way of answer to the second question.
@codinghorror Anyway, this isn't the first time you've replied to me to make the argument that LLMs are just another kind of tool. I suspect we won't see eye-to-eye on that, especially as my work has been abused to make LLM products.
I hope we can agree though, that my objection *even though you disagree with it* is principled and neither knee jerk nor purity culture.
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No, opposing LLMs isn't "purity culture." I've seen this now from quite a few different people, and I disagree vehemently. It is good, actually, to have moral principles and hold to them, even when people with more money than you find said principles annoying.
@xgranade i don’t know what ‘opposing LLMs’ means for someone who doesn’t develop software.
Opposing the use of gen-AI tools in your creative endeavors? Sure. But that’s not much of a principled position as it does not affect anything or anyone but you and what you make.
To stand against the massive effort to defraud investors and steal public money which is what this whole AI thing is mostly about and what empowers the development of software using LLM’s to harm people
You will have to take a firmer and more proactive stand than just not using LLMs.
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No, opposing LLMs isn't "purity culture." I've seen this now from quite a few different people, and I disagree vehemently. It is good, actually, to have moral principles and hold to them, even when people with more money than you find said principles annoying.
@xgranade Calling opposing LLM's and their social consequences 'purity culture' sounds like the dumbest ass Democratic partisan nonsense I've heard since they called Bernie a sexist.
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@xgranade i don’t know what ‘opposing LLMs’ means for someone who doesn’t develop software.
Opposing the use of gen-AI tools in your creative endeavors? Sure. But that’s not much of a principled position as it does not affect anything or anyone but you and what you make.
To stand against the massive effort to defraud investors and steal public money which is what this whole AI thing is mostly about and what empowers the development of software using LLM’s to harm people
You will have to take a firmer and more proactive stand than just not using LLMs.
@subterfugue @xgranade This isn't just about money or code friend.
Ever heard of AI psychosis? Children who were directed by AI software to kill themselves? Environmental devastation from training and using AI models? Trauma caused to underpaid workers in the global south, without which these AI models would never have functioned in the first place? People getting fed lies about their own health by using an AI model to find out what ails them? Misinformation caused by people using AI software like a search engine? Etc. Etc. Etc.
AI is a fascist project and an irredeemable system. Doing all we can to reject and destroy AI is one of the biggest moral imperatives of our generation.
