I would like to give an update on "federation" on Bluesky.
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@mcc For my own understanding: while the server architecture is different, the same thing could happen on the Fediverse, right? (Except portability is worse.) The only thing saving it is that mastodon.social is only the plurality of users, maybe a majority, but not the overwhelming majority?
@jrose @mcc Even the portability being better is somewhat theoretical right now because if your identity is using did:plc then you are unable to move away from did:plc and Bluesky PBC has custody of your keys... And also like people have noticed hosting your own data in a PDS does not really make you independent from their actions so the point of doing it is somewhat unclear.
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@mcc @jrose I suspect their share goes up when there's a mass migration event and goes down otherwise, because in a mass migration event people want the easy answer and that's the easy answer the Mastodon website gives them. But otherwise there's probably a lot of accounts on m.s that don't stick around, while people on other instances might be more sticky (at least unless their instance shuts down).
It's been a while since one of those migrations came here so I think overall that's probably correct.
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@mcc "tried to adopt Fediverse first and basically got harassed off."
what does this mean, exactly? you don't have to interact with any other instance on the whole stack if you don't want to. what I'm guessing is this actually means people tried to signup for mastodon.social which is a shithole and then that got conflated with the whole fediverse@nullpotential @mcc people on Bluesky who have soured on fedi often complain about having been lectured about using alt text and CWs for what it's worth.
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this is the ticking time bomb
venture capital has sunk a big investment in bluesky, and at some point they are going to ask for a return
and then bluesky goes the way of twitter
"black fedi vs queer fedi" is mostly confined to a few notable drama ego characters
it's not devouring communities, there's plenty of black folk and queer folk on the fediverse completely untouched by it
but drama *is* drama
it does drive people away
and the bullying is real
@benroyce @txtechnician @mcc the funding is an interesting one. If we don't hear anything new about another BSky funding round in the next 6 months they'll start being close to running dry (they're currently closing in on one year since the last round that was supposed to be for two years and had a failed one early 2025)
Some of these recent troubling decisions may already be influenced by that. They've said they want to start running ads and that has implications for moderation for example.
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I would like to give an update on "federation" on Bluesky.
My expectation was it was unlikely we'd ever see this happen because "federation" on ATProto means basically reproducing the entirety of the Bluesky software stack. In old Big Data terms, on ActivityPub your instance is a "horizontal shard" of the network; ATProto forces full DB replicas only.
Still, we're seeing movement on this front, which I'd split into two categories:
1. Your fault (you reading this)
2. Aaron Rodericks's fault@mcc I am sure I've missed a lot of important things, but whatever happened to the ATProto indexer that was going to be built if cory doctorow's buddies could raise tens of millions of dollars?
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@msh @swetland @mcc @gbargoud I think it is good to keep looking at fediverse's decentralisation too but of course there's a huge difference between the degrees to which these two are controlled by a single entity.
Why do you say this was a significant factor in driving communities away from the fediverse? It sounds surprising to me.
@ikuturso it is talked about in this thread @mcc started but I will reiterate and add my take.
The fediverse is way more diverse in terms of operation to be sure, but it has been greatly dominated by a single *platform* (Mastodon) and application (micro blogging). As such the founder and his organisation have outsized influence on what functionality is deployed. For example quote toots were delayed for many years entirely because Gargron, and many victims of brigading in queer and neurodivergent communities, very strongly opposed implementing them. But BIPOC folk often used the feature in a supportive fashion, and even when suggested protections were offered they were shut down.
Anyways the dominance of one application and platform and the early adopters' community and culture here were off putting and occasionally hostile to BIPOC people especially who arrived in later waves. And it wasn't just with devs it was also in larger community initiatives like fediblock...
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@ikuturso it is talked about in this thread @mcc started but I will reiterate and add my take.
The fediverse is way more diverse in terms of operation to be sure, but it has been greatly dominated by a single *platform* (Mastodon) and application (micro blogging). As such the founder and his organisation have outsized influence on what functionality is deployed. For example quote toots were delayed for many years entirely because Gargron, and many victims of brigading in queer and neurodivergent communities, very strongly opposed implementing them. But BIPOC folk often used the feature in a supportive fashion, and even when suggested protections were offered they were shut down.
Anyways the dominance of one application and platform and the early adopters' community and culture here were off putting and occasionally hostile to BIPOC people especially who arrived in later waves. And it wasn't just with devs it was also in larger community initiatives like fediblock...
...this is just a surface level commentary on what happened, but if you were BIPOC or followed prominent BIPOC folk here you could eventually see a pattern in the interactions.
I know Bluesky is definitely not a panacea in this regard either (otherwise why the tremendous effort out into blacksky?), but they did address the wants and needs of nonwhite people better at least initially, at the app level.
Anyways what I am seeing is that both ecosystems here are making similar mistakes and facing similar challenges, and it is to do with some aspects of insufficient diversity both technically and socially.
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@bhasic @benroyce @swetland @mcc @aeva Alt text -
"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It's simply too painful to acknowledge, even to ourselves, that we've been taken. Once you give a charlatan power over you, you almost never get it back."
- Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World -
@mcc @cthos @aeva I feel like fedi's cost/scaling problem mostly centers around issues with the implementation and deployment of Mastodon (the most popular server), with some features of the protocol being not entirely optimal, compared to the fundamental design of atp being hostile to lightweight independent instances.
Somebody could build a "better Mastodon" and instantly give people a lower resource / less complicated option for small or self-hosted yet fully interoperable fedi servers.
@swetland
That already exists in the form of microblog.pub, gotosocial, snac2 at the very least, and yes they all take very few resources compared to BigM. Even pleroma/akkoma is better on this front.
@mcc @cthos @aeva -
@mcc @cthos @aeva I feel like fedi's cost/scaling problem mostly centers around issues with the implementation and deployment of Mastodon (the most popular server), with some features of the protocol being not entirely optimal, compared to the fundamental design of atp being hostile to lightweight independent instances.
Somebody could build a "better Mastodon" and instantly give people a lower resource / less complicated option for small or self-hosted yet fully interoperable fedi servers.
@swetland @mcc @cthos @aeva Mostly true, but Pleroma and Misskey have most of the same features, and are simpler to install, yet haven't supplanted Mastodon.
I think the true killer feature of a "better Mastodon" would have to be in-place migration: allow upgrading an existing Mastodon server by reading its entire database, and provide a UI similar enough to Mastodon that it's a seamless transition for users.
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@mat@friendica.exon.name I am not opposed to a category discussing alternatives protocols.
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@mcc @lrhodes @esoteric_programmer @alter_kaker
Feel like the best 'simple' explanation for AT Protocol that makes some sense of the different components is this document from Kuba @mackuba
Introduction to AT Protocol
Walkthrough of the various parts and concepts in Bluesky's AT Protocol (ATProto), the types of servers involved and how it all fits together
(mackuba.eu)
Kuba is also a great resource here on the Fedi for all things AT Protocol. He may be able to clear up any misunderstandings.
@mastodonmigration @mcc @lrhodes @esoteric_programmer @alter_kaker BGS, Big Graph Server, that was the old name, got renamed to relay at some point.
And last November they made a switch to "non archival relays" which now only pass through, but don't store complete repos for everyone.
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@mat @mcc @alter_kaker I can recommend joining ATProto Touchers discord (was renamed a few months ago)
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@mat @mcc @alter_kaker I also use discord for Mastodon and Fedify development, but don't feel obliged to join, I'm just saying it's a good server
I currently work across both protocols for various things, learning how they do things that might be relevant to us
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@lrhodes @mackuba @mastodonmigration @mcc @esoteric_programmer @alter_kaker
yes and no:
the switch was total in the sense that you can run the full network without any archiving function. zeppelin is a demonstration of that, that you can run a full network without any archiving functionality of the relay
in practice the relay that bluesky operates is still on the old version, so their relay still has archiving functionality present. dont think its actually used for anything tho
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@lrhodes @mackuba @mastodonmigration @mcc @esoteric_programmer @alter_kaker
yes and no:
the switch was total in the sense that you can run the full network without any archiving function. zeppelin is a demonstration of that, that you can run a full network without any archiving functionality of the relay
in practice the relay that bluesky operates is still on the old version, so their relay still has archiving functionality present. dont think its actually used for anything tho
@laurenshof @lrhodes @mastodonmigration @mcc @esoteric_programmer @alter_kaker AFAIK they only run a non-archival relay rn, I don't think anyone runs an archival one at the moment
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@squinky @mcc so much this
i will never forget how back in 2023 when i was just getting into more leftist thinking and i went to ask why capitalism is bad on fedi since i saw a lot of people shitting on it
and to say i had stones thrown at me would be an understatement
barely anyone was answering my question and the rest resorted to ad hominem attacks. ironically all of this had the opposite of the intended effect and only pushed me away from the ideology they were crucifying me for not blindly adopting
its such a shame that 2 years later this problem hasnt gone away -
@mcc I’m glad to see more discussion around this or any discussion at all because previously when black Fedi users have been outspoken about harassment on this platform and the fact that white queer folks are involved in it (because they are over represented here), they have faced denial, accusations, etc.
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So what I understand from this is that it would be relatively possible for BlackSky or NorthSky to add ActivityPub as a secondary protocol in ways that would likely be unfeasible to do the other way (ActivityPub instance using ATProto as a secondary protocol)
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...this is just a surface level commentary on what happened, but if you were BIPOC or followed prominent BIPOC folk here you could eventually see a pattern in the interactions.
I know Bluesky is definitely not a panacea in this regard either (otherwise why the tremendous effort out into blacksky?), but they did address the wants and needs of nonwhite people better at least initially, at the app level.
Anyways what I am seeing is that both ecosystems here are making similar mistakes and facing similar challenges, and it is to do with some aspects of insufficient diversity both technically and socially.
@msh @ikuturso @mcc @swetland @gbargoud arguably bluesky could address those needs better because they maintain control over the full vertical and can apply advisory policies that don't have any real security backing. you can use a different appview or just browse the data directly and *not* apply blocks, gates, etc... this horrifies most people who learn about it and horrifies them further that there's nothing they can do about it. all the policies only apply if you're using the official apps.
