Sigh. OK.
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@be I think I have missed this particular dimension to the discourse, what "hate thread" in particular are you talking about?
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RE: https://mastodon.social/@glyph/115839163441384816
@rmi My initial comparisons to substance abuse were somewhat tentative and reluctant, back in January. But these have gone from being a few troubling-but-subtle bits of hearsay and implication to a drumbeat of near-daily incidents and I wish I were not feeling so validated in this particular view
@glyph @rmi An observation I've seen elsewhere is that LLMs provide intermittent reward, which is the thing that keeps gambling addicts hooked. Intermittent reward is also something that keeps people in domestic abuse situations, and I feel like it's not the only parallel I can draw between the way LLMs behave and domestic abuse.
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@glyph I’ve seen this before, and no LLMs were involved. It’s addiction.
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@be oh fuck this _is_ channer shit isn't it. and it has that "raid" flavor of "unhinged chan trolls interacting with normies". Yeesh. I have registered my displeasure with certain LLM developments by participating in a few heated threads here and there but this is radioactively bad.
in any event thanks for the heads up
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@be oh fuck this _is_ channer shit isn't it. and it has that "raid" flavor of "unhinged chan trolls interacting with normies". Yeesh. I have registered my displeasure with certain LLM developments by participating in a few heated threads here and there but this is radioactively bad.
in any event thanks for the heads up
@glyph There were even violent threatening images posted. I reported that to GitHub and the poster got banned quickly.
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Sigh. OK. rsync discourse:
This is not a story about “vibe coding” or “slop” or regressions or even open source sustainability or whatever: it’s a story about mental health.
The timeline of Tridge’s response in particular can be broke down like so:
1. AI skeptics say "LLMs create difficult-to-evaluate defects, even if you're careful"
2. Tridge introduces defects even though he was careful
3. he gets yelled at
4. His response is to say "you dinosaurs don't appreciate how *careful* I was!"@glyph I do understand the point being made and personally I'd much rather have software written without AI.
But. It's their project. Stop yelling at people for projects they make in their spare time. If you're mad, don't depend on FOSS, pay for your software.
No amount of good-intent behaviour, even if the outcome may not be great, in a FOSS software project justifies this sort of harassment.
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@glyph I do understand the point being made and personally I'd much rather have software written without AI.
But. It's their project. Stop yelling at people for projects they make in their spare time. If you're mad, don't depend on FOSS, pay for your software.
No amount of good-intent behaviour, even if the outcome may not be great, in a FOSS software project justifies this sort of harassment.
@snaums tridge appears to be getting an avalanche of hateful harassment, so you do have *some* point, here, but
1. "rsync" the code that tridge releases to the public as a gift: nobody can complain about that if he fucks it up
2. "rsync" *the namespace entry in various update channels* which has lightly attended or completely unattended injection of code into running environments on billions of devices, based on a presumption of good faith: yeah you can complain if he starts messing with that
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@snaums tridge appears to be getting an avalanche of hateful harassment, so you do have *some* point, here, but
1. "rsync" the code that tridge releases to the public as a gift: nobody can complain about that if he fucks it up
2. "rsync" *the namespace entry in various update channels* which has lightly attended or completely unattended injection of code into running environments on billions of devices, based on a presumption of good faith: yeah you can complain if he starts messing with that
@snaums the trouble with open source is we conflate these two things
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@glyph There were even violent threatening images posted. I reported that to GitHub and the poster got banned quickly.
@be thanks for doing your part. I scrolled down far enough to see like a dozen soyjaks and realized that this had already descended far into hell before I saw anything really distressing
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@snaums the trouble with open source is we conflate these two things
@glyph the second point I don't quite understand: you mean, that distributions package rsync and auto-update it?
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@glyph the second point I don't quite understand: you mean, that distributions package rsync and auto-update it?
@snaums to a first approximation yes, but also things like homebrew or other build systems which don't necessarily look like "distributions". rsync is a thing which gets packaged and updated and people tend to not look too hard at the updates because its reputation is (was) so good
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@glyph I’ve seen this before, and no LLMs were involved. It’s addiction.
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@be oh fuck this _is_ channer shit isn't it. and it has that "raid" flavor of "unhinged chan trolls interacting with normies". Yeesh. I have registered my displeasure with certain LLM developments by participating in a few heated threads here and there but this is radioactively bad.
in any event thanks for the heads up
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@HeptaSean @be there are a LOT of different people in that thread with a lot of different motivations at this point. definitely some of all flavors right now
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@snaums to a first approximation yes, but also things like homebrew or other build systems which don't necessarily look like "distributions". rsync is a thing which gets packaged and updated and people tend to not look too hard at the updates because its reputation is (was) so good
@glyph @snaums Unfortunately, rsync is both a thing maintained by volunteer labour & released free [in all senses]
... and also critical infrastructure for several entire ecosystems.
Like... if someone built a bridge, and opened it to public use - millions use it, it becomes the main way to cross that particula gap
The maintainer doesn't owe it to anyone to *not* pave over the bridge with shit instead of asphalt...
... but also, it you depend on it, you;re gonna be mad about the shitbridge. -
@glyph @snaums Unfortunately, rsync is both a thing maintained by volunteer labour & released free [in all senses]
... and also critical infrastructure for several entire ecosystems.
Like... if someone built a bridge, and opened it to public use - millions use it, it becomes the main way to cross that particula gap
The maintainer doesn't owe it to anyone to *not* pave over the bridge with shit instead of asphalt...
... but also, it you depend on it, you;re gonna be mad about the shitbridge. -
@glyph@mastodon.social @rmi@cloudisland.nz
it seems a fairly apt analogy
@crystallinefire @glyph @rmi
I'm not an LLM user, but from what I can see, it offers those who do use them a feeling of immense power and productivity. That definitely has parallels with the highs produced by some illicit substances: "Using this, I feel like I can do anything".The trail of destruction is similar too.
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@miss_rodent @glyph Corporate needs you to find the differences: "I have a system" and "prompt engineering."
@xgranade@wandering.shop @miss_rodent@girlcock.club @glyph@mastodon.social You can check whether or not the "system" brings results (usually not, besides blackjack(until you get kicked out)), you cannot check whether "prompt engineering" works.
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@crystallinefire @glyph @rmi
I'm not an LLM user, but from what I can see, it offers those who do use them a feeling of immense power and productivity. That definitely has parallels with the highs produced by some illicit substances: "Using this, I feel like I can do anything".The trail of destruction is similar too.
@KimSJ @crystallinefire @glyph @rmi
> a feeling of immense power and productivity.
Sure, and comfort, confirmation and reassurance alongside the confidence. And then for most of us, we start to spot the problems. It's not unlike working alongside a colleague who is super confident, but has little real world experience.
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Like this is a luminary in the field, mocking his critics for making a prediction he finds risible when that prediction HAS ALREADY COME TRUE. He did the thing, and it went badly, in the way that everyone who is mad at him was saying all along that it would go badly. But he still thinks that he's right! This is not an unrepentant dumb guy being dumb, this is one of the smartest engineers in the field BECOMING dumb right before our eyes. That ought to scare you!
@glyph or it could be the patch that caused the regression was written by him in a hurry to fix a security hole. Then he realised he needed better testing and used AI tooling to try and solve the lack of testing and validation. Reading skills can't be that shit around here, maybe use an AI to read his blog post.
