Armin was once one of the most prolific programmers in Python.
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@cwebber
My HR guy thinks I'm a fool for criticizing the new "vibe coding bootcamp," and that this is the new reality that he needs to train folks for.
Nope nope nopetty nope.@cwebber
There's certainly a new reality, and use of some AI is sensible as a part of that, but LLMs, AI agents, and vibe coding? Those are problems, not solutions. Serious reliance on any of them will have adverse consequences. -
Feeling FOMO about AI? Well here's my advice!
Stay on top of what's happening. Which doesn't really require *using* the tools. Just see what people are doing.
Whether or not you do use it, stay a practitioner. And don't fall for the FOMO.
Your career won't end because you're not making the choice to use AI. (If your employer makes you use it, that's another thing.)
If you use AI, use it for "summarize and explore" tasks. DO NOT use it for *generate* tasks. That's a different thing.
If you want to differentiate yourself, *learning skills* is the differentiation space right now.
These things are easy to pick up. You can do it whenever. But keep learning.
If you see generated examples, don't paste or accept them. Type them in by hand! The hands on imperative: actually trying things congeals core ideas.
And if it doesn't help your career... well, your consolation prize is: you'll stay interesting.
@cwebber so burn the planet to summarize documents?
Every user of AI is complicit in every impact AI has on the planet. Willing, knowledgeable accomplices.
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Armin was once one of the most prolific programmers in Python. Says he never writes code anymore. Seeing more and more people like him write stuff like this on what are supposedly computer programming forums. https://lobste.rs/s/qmjejh/ai_is_slowly_munching_away_my_passion#c_jcgdju
Notably, once a person crosses this threshold, I see them still hang out on programming forums, but they never talk about any of the puzzles of programming anymore. Only about running agents. Which feels strange and sad. Why hang out on the forums at all then?
@cwebber i miss the good old days, when people stopped writing code because they burned out and never wanted to go near a computer again
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Steve Klabnik also had an interview on lobste.rs. There's a lot in it! It's a cool read! https://alexalejandre.com/programming/steve-klabnik-interview/
And then it gets to the AI part and he's just like "oh I don't write code anymore".
And notably Steve Klabnik has a lot to say about code, but it's *all in the past*.
Lots of brilliant people are becoming non-practitioners.
@cwebber not long until i am the best python writer in the world now. -
Armin was once one of the most prolific programmers in Python. Says he never writes code anymore. Seeing more and more people like him write stuff like this on what are supposedly computer programming forums. https://lobste.rs/s/qmjejh/ai_is_slowly_munching_away_my_passion#c_jcgdju
Notably, once a person crosses this threshold, I see them still hang out on programming forums, but they never talk about any of the puzzles of programming anymore. Only about running agents. Which feels strange and sad. Why hang out on the forums at all then?
@cwebber Perhaps it is a transitory stage between "I talk with other programmers about programming" and "I only talk to AI chatbots"
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Feeling FOMO about AI? Well here's my advice!
Stay on top of what's happening. Which doesn't really require *using* the tools. Just see what people are doing.
Whether or not you do use it, stay a practitioner. And don't fall for the FOMO.
Your career won't end because you're not making the choice to use AI. (If your employer makes you use it, that's another thing.)
If you use AI, use it for "summarize and explore" tasks. DO NOT use it for *generate* tasks. That's a different thing.
If you want to differentiate yourself, *learning skills* is the differentiation space right now.
These things are easy to pick up. You can do it whenever. But keep learning.
If you see generated examples, don't paste or accept them. Type them in by hand! The hands on imperative: actually trying things congeals core ideas.
And if it doesn't help your career... well, your consolation prize is: you'll stay interesting.
Also, I think using hosted models is strictly unethical for surveillance and energy usage reasons.
It *is* true that there are models you can run locally that are much, much more efficient, and I suspect the energy costs on training them can be dramatically reduced.
I don't use either presently, but using a local model to help you navigate a codebase (as opposed to generating code) is a very different thing, I think. But it's also not what most people are doing!
And hosted AI models, as I said, I think are fully objectionable from an ethics perspective.
Datacenters are an antipattern in the general case. AI datacenters, triply so.
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@cwebber Perhaps it is a transitory stage between "I talk with other programmers about programming" and "I only talk to AI chatbots"
@jalefkowit @cwebber … about chatbots?
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Feeling FOMO about AI? Well here's my advice!
Stay on top of what's happening. Which doesn't really require *using* the tools. Just see what people are doing.
Whether or not you do use it, stay a practitioner. And don't fall for the FOMO.
Your career won't end because you're not making the choice to use AI. (If your employer makes you use it, that's another thing.)
If you use AI, use it for "summarize and explore" tasks. DO NOT use it for *generate* tasks. That's a different thing.
If you want to differentiate yourself, *learning skills* is the differentiation space right now.
These things are easy to pick up. You can do it whenever. But keep learning.
If you see generated examples, don't paste or accept them. Type them in by hand! The hands on imperative: actually trying things congeals core ideas.
And if it doesn't help your career... well, your consolation prize is: you'll stay interesting.
@cwebber I was quite curious LLMs, but I recently had a disappointing experience. I had a common latex problem, but with a more unusual technology stack. It went to “Do this — I get an error — OK do that —…” for a few rounds, nothing surprising. At some point I crossed a line, and it went “OK there’s no way to do what you want with this tech”. As usual, 30 seconds of grepping around in the source code gave me the solution.
Anyway, I wouldn’t trust it for summarize and explore. -
@cwebber What's telling, I think, is that all these people go on about how much they're doing and how great AI is to help them build more *but there's no actual demonstrable stuff being done.* I mean, if AI was some kind of Nx multiplier you'd think we'd be getting N times more actual functionality out of software but mostly it seems like the N multiplier only applies to blog posts about how AI multiplies their programming.
It might just be me but I think there's an aversion to pointing people at projects where these tools were a part of it because some of those people will be jerks, or worse.
When I talk about how I'm using the tools, it's for people who already want to use them and just want some guidance for getting started on their own stuff, not for a general audience. It's not to prove anything, so there's no value in examples that outweighs the personal attacks it would invite.
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Armin was once one of the most prolific programmers in Python. Says he never writes code anymore. Seeing more and more people like him write stuff like this on what are supposedly computer programming forums. https://lobste.rs/s/qmjejh/ai_is_slowly_munching_away_my_passion#c_jcgdju
Notably, once a person crosses this threshold, I see them still hang out on programming forums, but they never talk about any of the puzzles of programming anymore. Only about running agents. Which feels strange and sad. Why hang out on the forums at all then?
@cwebber this is so dark and depressing
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@jalefkowit @cwebber … about chatbots?
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@cwebber I was quite curious LLMs, but I recently had a disappointing experience. I had a common latex problem, but with a more unusual technology stack. It went to “Do this — I get an error — OK do that —…” for a few rounds, nothing surprising. At some point I crossed a line, and it went “OK there’s no way to do what you want with this tech”. As usual, 30 seconds of grepping around in the source code gave me the solution.
Anyway, I wouldn’t trust it for summarize and explore.@gugurumbe I'm not saying people *should* use it for summarize and explore, I'm saying that's a different category of concern, if done with a local model.
However, I'll also point out you were trying to debug LaTeX, which I would argue is a nearly impossible task no matter how many resources are thrown at it
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Feeling FOMO about AI? Well here's my advice!
Stay on top of what's happening. Which doesn't really require *using* the tools. Just see what people are doing.
Whether or not you do use it, stay a practitioner. And don't fall for the FOMO.
Your career won't end because you're not making the choice to use AI. (If your employer makes you use it, that's another thing.)
If you use AI, use it for "summarize and explore" tasks. DO NOT use it for *generate* tasks. That's a different thing.
If you want to differentiate yourself, *learning skills* is the differentiation space right now.
These things are easy to pick up. You can do it whenever. But keep learning.
If you see generated examples, don't paste or accept them. Type them in by hand! The hands on imperative: actually trying things congeals core ideas.
And if it doesn't help your career... well, your consolation prize is: you'll stay interesting.
@cwebber In reality these machines sabotage the will to learn and the human spirit. People are lessened by using them. And most cannot resist their allure.
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@cwebber this is so dark and depressing
@zkat Very much so seconded.
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Steve Klabnik also had an interview on lobste.rs. There's a lot in it! It's a cool read! https://alexalejandre.com/programming/steve-klabnik-interview/
And then it gets to the AI part and he's just like "oh I don't write code anymore".
And notably Steve Klabnik has a lot to say about code, but it's *all in the past*.
Lots of brilliant people are becoming non-practitioners.
@cwebber im still wondering how much of all of this can be blamed on the industry-manufactured 'programmer ideal' to become a manager - past programmer, now seniority justifying bossing others around instead, even if the 'others' is simply a simulacrum of the subordinate
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@cwebber What's telling, I think, is that all these people go on about how much they're doing and how great AI is to help them build more *but there's no actual demonstrable stuff being done.* I mean, if AI was some kind of Nx multiplier you'd think we'd be getting N times more actual functionality out of software but mostly it seems like the N multiplier only applies to blog posts about how AI multiplies their programming.
@wordshaper @cwebber Also, the point of writing is understanding things a little bit better (and the joy of finding the perfect words and using them in the right order).
So you're not outsourcing your writing, but rather your thinking as well as your understanding of things.
(Unless you write copy or something. Then it doesn't matter as much. Although you will be worse at writing over time, but that is – or absolutely should be – more of a preference than thinking, I'd say.)
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@gugurumbe I'm not saying people *should* use it for summarize and explore, I'm saying that's a different category of concern, if done with a local model.
However, I'll also point out you were trying to debug LaTeX, which I would argue is a nearly impossible task no matter how many resources are thrown at it
@cwebber My XKCD-style password is so strong you can’t crack it: “undefined reference begin document”
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It might just be me but I think there's an aversion to pointing people at projects where these tools were a part of it because some of those people will be jerks, or worse.
When I talk about how I'm using the tools, it's for people who already want to use them and just want some guidance for getting started on their own stuff, not for a general audience. It's not to prove anything, so there's no value in examples that outweighs the personal attacks it would invite.
@wordshaper @cwebber What I will say is that continuing to maintain and develop the underlying skills is still important. People who let their writing, coding, whatever skills atrophy are likely doing themselves a disservice.
edit: It varies by thing. For example: I never wanted to be good at computer, I wanted to play Wing Commander. I'm happy to let the LLM make little one-off scripts and tools now. I offload a lot for longform nonfiction, but I run the show 90% with music and fiction writing.
It makes sense to me, then, that someone who never cared as much about code as what they could do with it is happy to offload coding to devote more brain power to the part that's fun for them.
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Feeling FOMO about AI? Well here's my advice!
Stay on top of what's happening. Which doesn't really require *using* the tools. Just see what people are doing.
Whether or not you do use it, stay a practitioner. And don't fall for the FOMO.
Your career won't end because you're not making the choice to use AI. (If your employer makes you use it, that's another thing.)
If you use AI, use it for "summarize and explore" tasks. DO NOT use it for *generate* tasks. That's a different thing.
If you want to differentiate yourself, *learning skills* is the differentiation space right now.
These things are easy to pick up. You can do it whenever. But keep learning.
If you see generated examples, don't paste or accept them. Type them in by hand! The hands on imperative: actually trying things congeals core ideas.
And if it doesn't help your career... well, your consolation prize is: you'll stay interesting.
@cwebber Also, don't use it for "summarize" because it literally can't do that.
When ChatGPT summarises, it actually does nothing of the kind.
One of the use cases I thought was reasonable to expect from ChatGPT and Friends (LLMs) was summarising. It turns out I was wrong. What ChatGPT isn't summarising at all, it only looks like it. What it does is something else and that something else only becomes summarising in very specific circumstances.
R&A IT Strategy & Architecture (ea.rna.nl)
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Armin was once one of the most prolific programmers in Python. Says he never writes code anymore. Seeing more and more people like him write stuff like this on what are supposedly computer programming forums. https://lobste.rs/s/qmjejh/ai_is_slowly_munching_away_my_passion#c_jcgdju
Notably, once a person crosses this threshold, I see them still hang out on programming forums, but they never talk about any of the puzzles of programming anymore. Only about running agents. Which feels strange and sad. Why hang out on the forums at all then?
@cwebber Why does the accursed ghoul still hang out in the outskirts forests around the town it used to live in?
