How (racist/sexist/whatever) harassment on Mastodon works:
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@dave@alvarado.social
But Dave, couldn't Mastodon just not allow you to reply followers only to a public post?
Dave: "Sure it could, but the harassers would simply run a system on their instance that doesn't have that restriction. The Fediverse is more than just Mastodon. And Mastodon is open source so they could also still use Mastodon but remove that restriction."@MxAlba @dave No, it doesn't work like that.
If their instance was breaking the reply restrictions rule, your instance would detect that when they try to federate the reply to your instance, and would reject it. Then you would not see it, and it also would not get federated to anyone who opens your post looking for the replies.
Your instance could also use detection of this behavior to automatically place the offending instance on limited federation and add it to a review queue of abusive instances that are candidates for defederation.
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If you're a white person on the Fediverse and you've never seen someone called a slur, or threats made against them--congratulations! You don't follow any dirtbags. But, it's happening every day and it's being hidden from you.
@dave
I appreciate the explanation of the problem. It's quite enlightening. Is there anything actionable I can do as non-moderator that happens to be on the Fediverse? Presumably raising awareness helps, but is there anything else I should be doing? -
How (racist/sexist/whatever) harassment on Mastodon works:
1. Harasser replies to their target's post, with the reply set to "followers only", saying the most vile stuff you can imagine.
2. All the harasser's followers join in on the harassment, posting more vile stuff.
3. Nobody but the target and the harassment crew can see the vile stuff that was said.
4. Target is traumatized. Nobody else can see why.
5. Everybody says "I don't see it so it's not happening."
Hachyderm's Introduction to Mastodon Moderation: Part 1
The first post in a series about Mastodon moderation tooling. This post focuses on context for the upcoming posts.
Hachyderm Community (community.hachyderm.io)
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@dave
This is why hiding content (either from blocks, lists, etc) has so many trolling edge cases....Which leads me to wonder: What is the reply's visibility being able to be set that supposed to do? What is the intended use case? Why can a replier or quoter be allowed to isolate someone like that? Is it hidden from moderators?
@Crissa @dave I limit reply visibility to followers only or mentioned only a lot when it's something that I don't want to show up on random stranger's timelines. Sometimes it's to reduce the amount of replyguys. Sometimes it's sorta personal stuff (not to the level of "move to Signal" but still not the sort of thing everyone needs to read)
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Replies are just posts, and all posts use the same security options (currently). The feature is there so you can have an OP that is only visible to followers. Lots of people do that to keep their posts among friends, basically. The core issue is that because servers are federated, every post has to carry the privacy level with it, letting it be switched mid-stream.
@dave couldn't the post be signed including the security options? Then editing them would cause a bad sig and get it dropped?
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@Crissa @dave I limit reply visibility to followers only or mentioned only a lot when it's something that I don't want to show up on random stranger's timelines. Sometimes it's to reduce the amount of replyguys. Sometimes it's sorta personal stuff (not to the level of "move to Signal" but still not the sort of thing everyone needs to read)
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"But Dave, why don't they moderate?"
They do. The harassers spin up new instances to get around block lists.
"But Dave, why don't they show the receipts?"
The brave ones do, when they have the energy. It invites a huge amount more harassment, so showing receipts *always* causes psychological damage.
Some folks are willing to tank that damage to get the word out. Most people understandably just want it to stop.
@dave i think if you're going to show receipts, then you should post them followers only. seems only right.
i wish more people would do this, but at the same time, i would never *ask* someone to do that; it's not fair on them.
But it does have a purpose. as you are pointing out, lots of folks don't know this is happening.
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How (racist/sexist/whatever) harassment on Mastodon works:
1. Harasser replies to their target's post, with the reply set to "followers only", saying the most vile stuff you can imagine.
2. All the harasser's followers join in on the harassment, posting more vile stuff.
3. Nobody but the target and the harassment crew can see the vile stuff that was said.
4. Target is traumatized. Nobody else can see why.
5. Everybody says "I don't see it so it's not happening."
Hachyderm's Introduction to Mastodon Moderation: Part 1
The first post in a series about Mastodon moderation tooling. This post focuses on context for the upcoming posts.
Hachyderm Community (community.hachyderm.io)
@dave when they did it on twiter, they got all the brigadeers to block the target first, so all they got was indirect harrassment and stories from friends, but the victim couldnt report them because it wasnt possible to hit the report button on a profile that blocks the person trying to report. it was a mechanism to chop them off of a community or run disinformation campaigns
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"But Dave, why don't they moderate?"
They do. The harassers spin up new instances to get around block lists.
"But Dave, why don't they show the receipts?"
The brave ones do, when they have the energy. It invites a huge amount more harassment, so showing receipts *always* causes psychological damage.
Some folks are willing to tank that damage to get the word out. Most people understandably just want it to stop.
@dave Is there a shit mastodon says account yet? Maybe people could anonymously shame the harassers by messaging screenshots and posting them that way.
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Replies are just posts, and all posts use the same security options (currently). The feature is there so you can have an OP that is only visible to followers. Lots of people do that to keep their posts among friends, basically. The core issue is that because servers are federated, every post has to carry the privacy level with it, letting it be switched mid-stream.
@dave Could there be a moderation setting where I could choose not to see any posts that are followers only if I am not following the person who authored it? Even if it mentions me by name? But still see public posts that mention me by name.?
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R relay@relay.an.exchange shared this topic
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How (racist/sexist/whatever) harassment on Mastodon works:
1. Harasser replies to their target's post, with the reply set to "followers only", saying the most vile stuff you can imagine.
2. All the harasser's followers join in on the harassment, posting more vile stuff.
3. Nobody but the target and the harassment crew can see the vile stuff that was said.
4. Target is traumatized. Nobody else can see why.
5. Everybody says "I don't see it so it's not happening."
Hachyderm's Introduction to Mastodon Moderation: Part 1
The first post in a series about Mastodon moderation tooling. This post focuses on context for the upcoming posts.
Hachyderm Community (community.hachyderm.io)
@dave doing the woooooooooork
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@MxAlba @dave No, it doesn't work like that.
If their instance was breaking the reply restrictions rule, your instance would detect that when they try to federate the reply to your instance, and would reject it. Then you would not see it, and it also would not get federated to anyone who opens your post looking for the replies.
Your instance could also use detection of this behavior to automatically place the offending instance on limited federation and add it to a review queue of abusive instances that are candidates for defederation.
@dalias@hachyderm.io @dave@alvarado.social
Thanks for the education! So it does sound like that might be a solution... -
How (racist/sexist/whatever) harassment on Mastodon works:
1. Harasser replies to their target's post, with the reply set to "followers only", saying the most vile stuff you can imagine.
2. All the harasser's followers join in on the harassment, posting more vile stuff.
3. Nobody but the target and the harassment crew can see the vile stuff that was said.
4. Target is traumatized. Nobody else can see why.
5. Everybody says "I don't see it so it's not happening."
Hachyderm's Introduction to Mastodon Moderation: Part 1
The first post in a series about Mastodon moderation tooling. This post focuses on context for the upcoming posts.
Hachyderm Community (community.hachyderm.io)
@dave this is actually super helpful for me, Dave. makes it super clear. I knew it was happening, never understood how, or why I couldn't see it.
Thank you!
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How (racist/sexist/whatever) harassment on Mastodon works:
1. Harasser replies to their target's post, with the reply set to "followers only", saying the most vile stuff you can imagine.
2. All the harasser's followers join in on the harassment, posting more vile stuff.
3. Nobody but the target and the harassment crew can see the vile stuff that was said.
4. Target is traumatized. Nobody else can see why.
5. Everybody says "I don't see it so it's not happening."
Hachyderm's Introduction to Mastodon Moderation: Part 1
The first post in a series about Mastodon moderation tooling. This post focuses on context for the upcoming posts.
Hachyderm Community (community.hachyderm.io)
> 5. Everybody says "I don't see it so it's not happening."
I would never say that. I think multiple times I've said "I don't see it but of course I believe you, what can we do?"
So what can we do?
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How (racist/sexist/whatever) harassment on Mastodon works:
1. Harasser replies to their target's post, with the reply set to "followers only", saying the most vile stuff you can imagine.
2. All the harasser's followers join in on the harassment, posting more vile stuff.
3. Nobody but the target and the harassment crew can see the vile stuff that was said.
4. Target is traumatized. Nobody else can see why.
5. Everybody says "I don't see it so it's not happening."
Hachyderm's Introduction to Mastodon Moderation: Part 1
The first post in a series about Mastodon moderation tooling. This post focuses on context for the upcoming posts.
Hachyderm Community (community.hachyderm.io)
@dave Would it be possible to add a way to ban "followers only replies"? As a toggle in user preferences, or something, anyone know?
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If you're a white person on the Fediverse and you've never seen someone called a slur, or threats made against them--congratulations! You don't follow any dirtbags. But, it's happening every day and it's being hidden from you.
@dave Sorry to hear this. Do block people you don't like, seek out ones you do. You have to work to make Mastodon the place you want it to be. Sorry that you have to work harder than white people; if I could change that, I would.
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@Crissa @dave I limit reply visibility to followers only or mentioned only a lot when it's something that I don't want to show up on random stranger's timelines. Sometimes it's to reduce the amount of replyguys. Sometimes it's sorta personal stuff (not to the level of "move to Signal" but still not the sort of thing everyone needs to read)
@JessTheUnstill @Crissa @dave I do it for call-ins. There are a lot of marginalized people in my circles, but we all make mistakes and every once in a while let slip an unexamined bias. So when one of my peers says something harmful, I'm likely to call them on it in a followers only post, because I don't want to leave it unaddressed but also really don't want to cause a dogpile. So it's a tool that's used both for preventing harassment and for harassment
I'm not sure how to resolve that -
@dalias@hachyderm.io @dave@alvarado.social
Thanks for the education! So it does sound like that might be a solution... -
@dave couldn't the post be signed including the security options? Then editing them would cause a bad sig and get it dropped?
@stuartyeates @dave It could, but that would be a whole new protocol. ActivityPubS
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How (racist/sexist/whatever) harassment on Mastodon works:
1. Harasser replies to their target's post, with the reply set to "followers only", saying the most vile stuff you can imagine.
2. All the harasser's followers join in on the harassment, posting more vile stuff.
3. Nobody but the target and the harassment crew can see the vile stuff that was said.
4. Target is traumatized. Nobody else can see why.
5. Everybody says "I don't see it so it's not happening."
Hachyderm's Introduction to Mastodon Moderation: Part 1
The first post in a series about Mastodon moderation tooling. This post focuses on context for the upcoming posts.
Hachyderm Community (community.hachyderm.io)
@dave I think we need to change the way 'followers only' works, perhaps the target has to be a follower of the harasser for it to work?
Or maybe the followers only option is disabled by default on all posts?
Or, and I rather like this, the target never sees the post, after all they are not a follower
