Trump signed an executive order today about mail in voting.
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One problem: there is no existing master list of US citizens and their addresses. This is why states have to have voter registration in the first place.
And the legal problems with this are too numerous to enumerate. For one, this EO requires the USPS to engage in conduct that could be construed as interfering with individuals' rights to vote, which is a criminal offense. Ballots from purported "unauthorized" voters would never be delivered, depriving the voters of the ability to ever adjudicate any questions raised about their eligibility (which might occur when their ballot is received).
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Yeah, for those who are lucky enough to have that option
But the majority of voters have disabilities and/or live in rural areas
And they already made it illegal for supportive groups to collect people's ballots and turn them in together, didn't they?
@NilaJones @alienghic No. There is no federal law governing ballot return. Some states have laws restricting aggregated return of ballots, but those are state, not federal, laws.
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Yeah, for those who are lucky enough to have that option
But the majority of voters have disabilities and/or live in rural areas
And they already made it illegal for supportive groups to collect people's ballots and turn them in together, didn't they?
Matt beat me to "it depends on your local government"
As an example of a place that takes voting seriously, here in Los Angeles county we have an "accessible vote by mail" where there's some method to use a computer or phone to read & fill in the ballot, which you then print out and turn in.
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And the legal problems with this are too numerous to enumerate. For one, this EO requires the USPS to engage in conduct that could be construed as interfering with individuals' rights to vote, which is a criminal offense. Ballots from purported "unauthorized" voters would never be delivered, depriving the voters of the ability to ever adjudicate any questions raised about their eligibility (which might occur when their ballot is received).
Anyway, I agree with Rick Hasen that this is not cause for panic.
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Anyway, I agree with Rick Hasen that this is not cause for panic.
@mattblaze I really appreciate your calm assessments.
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Anyway, I agree with Rick Hasen that this is not cause for panic.
An aside: most mail from election offices to voters, and most pre-printed ballot return envelopes, are marked "Official Election Mail". This is a convenience, but not a requirement. The USPS takes some measures to expedite and protect election mail (they'll usually deliver it even without postage), but there is no law requiring that election offices use the marking. A state that wants to evade Trump's (rather feckless) EO could simply use regular envelopes.
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An aside: most mail from election offices to voters, and most pre-printed ballot return envelopes, are marked "Official Election Mail". This is a convenience, but not a requirement. The USPS takes some measures to expedite and protect election mail (they'll usually deliver it even without postage), but there is no law requiring that election offices use the marking. A state that wants to evade Trump's (rather feckless) EO could simply use regular envelopes.
Many ballots are already returned in plain envelops. The generic UOCAVA ballot, used by many military and expat overseas voters, is designed to be returned in a regular envelope. And some states allow "print-at-home" blank ballot forms for some or all voters, which are also returned by a regular, voter-supplied envelope.
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Matt beat me to "it depends on your local government"
As an example of a place that takes voting seriously, here in Los Angeles county we have an "accessible vote by mail" where there's some method to use a computer or phone to read & fill in the ballot, which you then print out and turn in.
Yes of course. And how do you turn it in, if you can't physically get to the dropbox, you aren't legally allowed to have someone else drop it off for you, and you can't mail it?
And of course, we have to remember that there are no red states, there are just voter suppression states. And they are not going to help poor people vote
(Unfortunately the linked page isn't readable on Android Firefox. It's just a solid cobalt blue with a close window x in the upper left hand corner. No text)
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@NilaJones @alienghic No. There is no federal law governing ballot return. Some states have laws restricting aggregated return of ballots, but those are state, not federal, laws.
Oh that's good to hear!
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Yes of course. And how do you turn it in, if you can't physically get to the dropbox, you aren't legally allowed to have someone else drop it off for you, and you can't mail it?
And of course, we have to remember that there are no red states, there are just voter suppression states. And they are not going to help poor people vote
(Unfortunately the linked page isn't readable on Android Firefox. It's just a solid cobalt blue with a close window x in the upper left hand corner. No text)
So last year the ballot envelopes intended for the drop boxes had a place for the voter to sign, and I think a second place to sign if you were turning the ballot in for someone else.
But then California is one of the states trying reasonably hard to make voting secure and easy.
As for the web page maybe reload? It mostly worked for me on my firefox on android.
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So last year the ballot envelopes intended for the drop boxes had a place for the voter to sign, and I think a second place to sign if you were turning the ballot in for someone else.
But then California is one of the states trying reasonably hard to make voting secure and easy.
As for the web page maybe reload? It mostly worked for me on my firefox on android.
Yeah, this is the problem. At the federal level, they are trying to make voter suppression worse
Individual states can counteract it, but it costs money and effort. Maybe not too bad in California, but I am from a poorer state
And many states won't even try, or will welcome the worsening
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Trump signed an executive order today about mail in voting. It's an attempt to restrict postal delivery of mail in ballots to people on a DHS-compiled list of citizens.
Rick Hasen has a nice summary (tl;dr: not much to get worked up over here, for both legal and practical reasons):
Breaking: President Trump Signs New Executive Order on Elections: It is Underwhelming Compared to What Was Threatened. It's Key Part is Likely Unconstitutional: Directing the Post Office to Reject Mail Ballots Except from Those on Federally Approved Voter Lists #ELB
President Trump has signed a second executive order purporting to regulate federal elections (especially mail ballots). His first executive order from March 2025 has already been enjoined in key parts for violating the Constitution. As Judge Kollar-Kotelly wrote in one … Continue reading Breaking: President Trump Signs New Executive Order on Elections: It is Underwhelming Compared to What Was Threatened. It’s Key Part is Likely Unconstitutional: Directing the Post Office to Reject Mail Ballots Except from Those on Federally Approved Voter Lists →
Election Law Blog (electionlawblog.org)
@mattblaze they are going throw lots of shit at the wall trying find something, anything that works.
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The postal provisions would place requirements on the ballot RETURN envelope (with the marked ballot sent back from the voter) that it must identify the voter via a barcode for comparison with the approved list. It would apply to envelopes marked as "official election mail", which is not a marking states are required to use, though most do.
Anyway, this will be challenged in court, and the logistics of it would make it pretty infeasible prior to the midterms in any case.
@mattblaze Would ballot drop boxes allow me to simply ignore this EO's potential impact on my vote altogether? I imagine zealots will camp out near drop boxes and try to illegally deny access, but I can get the ballot into the box way before election day, and then be sure that any illegal USPS conduct won't affect me because the county collects my ballot directly.
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@mattblaze Would ballot drop boxes allow me to simply ignore this EO's potential impact on my vote altogether? I imagine zealots will camp out near drop boxes and try to illegally deny access, but I can get the ballot into the box way before election day, and then be sure that any illegal USPS conduct won't affect me because the county collects my ballot directly.
@dutch_connection_uk The ballot delivery provisions of the EO applies (or attempts to apply) only to the USPS. So yes.
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Many ballots are already returned in plain envelops. The generic UOCAVA ballot, used by many military and expat overseas voters, is designed to be returned in a regular envelope. And some states allow "print-at-home" blank ballot forms for some or all voters, which are also returned by a regular, voter-supplied envelope.
It's worth trying to understand what problem this executive order is purporting to solve. It's not clear; you have to squint.
Trump and many of the election deniers have created a widespread impression that mail-in ballots are unsecured, and that there are no (or only ineffective) safeguards against sending in counterfeit, fake, or duplicated ballots and having them counted.
But, despite being repeated frequently, this impression is completely false and baseless, as I'll discuss.
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It's worth trying to understand what problem this executive order is purporting to solve. It's not clear; you have to squint.
Trump and many of the election deniers have created a widespread impression that mail-in ballots are unsecured, and that there are no (or only ineffective) safeguards against sending in counterfeit, fake, or duplicated ballots and having them counted.
But, despite being repeated frequently, this impression is completely false and baseless, as I'll discuss.
Mail in ballots have security features and a processing workflow that mirror that of in-person voting. Just about every mechanism that prevents you from showing up to vote in person multiple times or without being registered has an analog - sometimes a stronger one - in mail-in ballot processing.
The precise details vary from state to state and for different voters, but roughly:
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Mail in ballots have security features and a processing workflow that mirror that of in-person voting. Just about every mechanism that prevents you from showing up to vote in person multiple times or without being registered has an analog - sometimes a stronger one - in mail-in ballot processing.
The precise details vary from state to state and for different voters, but roughly:
1. Marked ballots are generally returned in two nested envelopes or wrappers; the inner wrapper has no identifying information, while the outer one is unique to the voter and has both identifying information and, generally, the voter's signature. In most cases the only way to obtain a valid ballot and envelope is to have it mailed to the address on file with the local election office.
2. The voter returns (by mail, dropbox, etc) their ballot in the two envelopes and signs the outer one.
...
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It's worth trying to understand what problem this executive order is purporting to solve. It's not clear; you have to squint.
Trump and many of the election deniers have created a widespread impression that mail-in ballots are unsecured, and that there are no (or only ineffective) safeguards against sending in counterfeit, fake, or duplicated ballots and having them counted.
But, despite being repeated frequently, this impression is completely false and baseless, as I'll discuss.
@mattblaze Oh, we know what problems it purports to solve: the insecurity of mail-in ballots and non-citizens voting. What is unclear is how this actually solves either (non-existent) problem.
We also know what problem they're actually trying to solve: Democrats voting. -
1. Marked ballots are generally returned in two nested envelopes or wrappers; the inner wrapper has no identifying information, while the outer one is unique to the voter and has both identifying information and, generally, the voter's signature. In most cases the only way to obtain a valid ballot and envelope is to have it mailed to the address on file with the local election office.
2. The voter returns (by mail, dropbox, etc) their ballot in the two envelopes and signs the outer one.
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3. When the ballot envelope reaches the election office, it's processed in two stages:
3a) First, the outer envelope is checked to verify that it contains the unique identifying information for the voter (usually a unique ID number), that that ballot wasn't already processed, and that the signature matches what's on file. If there is any discrepancy, the ballot is held for exception processing.
3b) If the verification was OK, the inner envelope (with the ballot inside) is sent to tallying.
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3. When the ballot envelope reaches the election office, it's processed in two stages:
3a) First, the outer envelope is checked to verify that it contains the unique identifying information for the voter (usually a unique ID number), that that ballot wasn't already processed, and that the signature matches what's on file. If there is any discrepancy, the ballot is held for exception processing.
3b) If the verification was OK, the inner envelope (with the ballot inside) is sent to tallying.
...@mattblaze
I conjecture that voters mostly fall in two groups:
1) Those who've never used vote-by-mail and maybe have suspicions.
2) Those who've used it for years and would never voluntarily stop using it.
