My experience with generative-AI has been that, at its very best, it is subtly wrong in ways that only an expert in the relevant subject would recognise.
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@jonathanhogg Have you seen Decker? It’s a lovely homage to HyperCard: https://beyondloom.com/decker/index.html
@eschaton It looks cute, though curious to build such a faithful homage but ditch the most interesting thing about HyperCard – the HyperTalk language
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@skotchygut I'm pretty sure I still have a "backup copy" of Turbo C++ somewhere...
@jonathanhogg@requiem @skotchygut believe it or not, I actually learned C on the BBC Micro in the 80s with the Beebug C compiler, which was a strange contraption that compiled to a 16-bit virtual machine code and then interpreted that on the 8-bit 6502
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To me, all these people crowing about having written 10k lines of code in a day are idiots. If you need to write that much code in a day, you are manifestly working at the wrong level of abstraction to solve your problem.
@jonathanhogg In general I agree but the current state of everything-in-React means a 1k line change often makes sense at some level. It's horribly verbose, logically small changes make big diffs, the library ecosystem is full of half-baked projects, it's just a mess. Removing some of the friction to adding code makes it much worse, but it's not the only cause. Now, back to better dev tools, unfortunately Excel has somehow ended up being the go-to for a lot of the world. I dunno.
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@jonathanhogg In general I agree but the current state of everything-in-React means a 1k line change often makes sense at some level. It's horribly verbose, logically small changes make big diffs, the library ecosystem is full of half-baked projects, it's just a mess. Removing some of the friction to adding code makes it much worse, but it's not the only cause. Now, back to better dev tools, unfortunately Excel has somehow ended up being the go-to for a lot of the world. I dunno.
@mirth It's truly amazing what browsers are able to do now, but unfortunately that doesn't fix that JavaScript and the entire JavaScript ecosystem is a godawful mess
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@mirth It's truly amazing what browsers are able to do now, but unfortunately that doesn't fix that JavaScript and the entire JavaScript ecosystem is a godawful mess
@jonathanhogg Browser engines are amazing. What we have is related to why Flash was never going to work for mobile. Nothing to do with the runtime, everything to do with the target most devs built for (desktop which 15 years ago was much faster than phones). Now half of web devs have Apple M series silicon which is twice or more as fast as most of the installed base of PCs. Whatever is just tolerably fast on a dev's machine is guaranteed to suck everywhere else. Sadness ensues.
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You know what? HyperCard was a glorious moment in time that I dearly miss: an army of non-experts were bashing together and sharing weird and wonderful stacks that were part 'zine, part adventure game and part database. Instead of laughing at vibe-coders, maybe we should ask ourselves why the current state-of-the-art in beginner-friendly programming tools is a planet-boiling roulette wheel.
@jonathanhogg because the people pushing LLMs killed Flash to make room for LLMs
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@jonathanhogg HyperCard was great.
@StaceyCornelius @jonathanhogg is a descendants/replacement extant now?
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I've seen lots of posts in the last couple of days about how quickly one can write lots of code with AI. I feel perplexed by this as I hate large programs. The largest thing I have written in the last decade is Flitter. It's only 30k lines and I believe very strongly that it is. Still. Too. Big. Even there, I wrote it purposely to allow the stuff I write *in* it to be very smol: mostly no more than 100 lines. That is the maximum I want to write in a day.
@jonathanhogg I've spent the last decade writing about 50k lines of C++ and it's barely comprehensible to me. Despite regular bouts of significant refactoring and deleting, as old 'new and essential' functions turn out to never be used or the one user goes away.
I did point a downloadable LLM assistant at it but got nothing usable. I was half hoping for a "sure, I'll rewrite that into Rust for you" result
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@jonathanhogg this is my central response to the "AI makes software development accessible" argument.
Once upon a time anyone could program their personal computer using a book that came with it. We taught it to all the kids in my tiny town's elementary school. My shopkeep neighbor and our local mechanic wrote their own custom software with no CS background.
BASIC, Hypercard, personal computers, printed manuals > LLM's.
@requiem @jonathanhogg don't forget COBOL and SQL, both invented so businesspeople could dispense with overpriced programmers and just talk to the machine directly.
Turns out that programming people is much easier than programming machines, or at least that yelling at the compiler about an error message is much less useful than yelling at subordinates.
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You know what? HyperCard was a glorious moment in time that I dearly miss: an army of non-experts were bashing together and sharing weird and wonderful stacks that were part 'zine, part adventure game and part database. Instead of laughing at vibe-coders, maybe we should ask ourselves why the current state-of-the-art in beginner-friendly programming tools is a planet-boiling roulette wheel.
@jonathanhogg hypercard was such a formative experience for me as a kid, I don’t think I would have ever gotten into programming without it
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@jonathanhogg HyperCard was *amazing* and I don't understand why there's nothing like it anymore. It was like building programs with Lego. Just snap things together, write your program in a very natural language, and do incredible things. It was so easy to double click on something and add a few lines of code. I remember also having fun with the flexibility of the language and constantly trying to see what different syntax I could get away with.
@fozztexx @jonathanhogg there are quite a few, Lego even have a visual programming language for their smart bricks (I think Python is officially supported, unlike not quite C for Mindstorms).
There's also a visual language for a smart RC/drone controller built by that one guy
iforce2d is the guy.But they're generally hard to to anything nontrivial with and very hard to debug. Like Excel/Calc... so easy to have subtle errors even in simple programs that it's considered inevitable.
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@jonathanhogg No, it's still difficult to program something so that it's exactly how you want it to be. It's apparently been underestimated how often that doesn't matter ("mostly working app" where getting it to working is more effort than starting from scratch), but we will see how that develops in the long run. Maybe plausible deniability is really enough for many things.
Nobody is gatekeeping clear, testable requirements and communication without misunderstandings. People usually just can't do that.
@dasgrueneblatt @jonathanhogg I also build bicycles (and have worked in a bike shop), and it sometimes shocks me how closely it parallels software.
People who actually ride a bicycle more than once don't want "a bike, any bike", they want a bike that does X, Y, and Z. They often can't articulate that at the start, usually because they don't know it.
But once they ride for a bit they want a comfortable riding position, gears and brakes that work, mudguards, etc.
Just like software
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My experience with generative-AI has been that, at its very best, it is subtly wrong in ways that only an expert in the relevant subject would recognise. So I don't worry about us creating super-intelligent AI, I worry about us allowing that expertise to atrophy through laziness and greed. I refuse to use LLMs not because I'm scared of how clever they are, but because I do not wish to become stupider.
"AI is a genius on every subject except that one thing you're extremely knowledgeable about."
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