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  3. In the 1960s, the B-52 bomber could navigate by the stars.

In the 1960s, the B-52 bomber could navigate by the stars.

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  • richrants@toot.communityR richrants@toot.community

    @kenshirriff Thank you, this is a wonderful article! I had been wondering how celestial navigation worked in planes and missiles.

    For all practical intents and purposes, this information is useless for me, but reading the article makes me happy.

    If knowing how to build a positioning system for a strategic bomber in a post-GPS/GNSS world ever becomes practically useful to me: thank you again and may God help us all.

    gnarf@hachyderm.ioG This user is from outside of this forum
    gnarf@hachyderm.ioG This user is from outside of this forum
    gnarf@hachyderm.io
    wrote last edited by
    #29

    @richrants @kenshirriff I was involved in the development of a star tracker for a satellite: It's basically a camera, a database of all the known stars and some fancy algorithms. You point it at an arbitrary bit of the sky and it gives you you're attitude relative to the rest of the universe, no other external inputs necessary except for the starlight 😄

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    • vk2bea@mastodon.radioV vk2bea@mastodon.radio

      @kenshirriff .. so about 11 km at 34 degrees north.

      I guess with a 10 megaton bomb, it's good enough. If Dr Strangelove is anything to go by, the final bombing run used radar 😸

      seachanged@mastodon.socialS This user is from outside of this forum
      seachanged@mastodon.socialS This user is from outside of this forum
      seachanged@mastodon.social
      wrote last edited by
      #30

      @vk2bea @kenshirriff

      I doubted that 10 megaton yield, but indeed, the B-53 had a 9 megaton yield.

      It replaced the B-41, a 25 megaton yield device.

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      • kenshirriff@oldbytes.spaceK kenshirriff@oldbytes.space

        @dnaunton The SR-71 used a different system, the NAS-14V2 astroinertial navigation system. Nortronics built the SR-71 system and Kollsman built the B-52 system. The B-52 system is said to have also been used in the Hound Dog cruise missile. A very detailed document on the SR-71 star tracker is here: https://audiopub.co.kr/wp-content/uploads/2021/10/NAS-14V2-ANS-System.pdf

        K This user is from outside of this forum
        K This user is from outside of this forum
        kynx@fosstodon.org
        wrote last edited by
        #31

        @kenshirriff @dnaunton this is fascinating. I also congratulate you on one of the clearest summaries of celestial navigation I have read.

        Ages ago I read Francis Chichester’s account of his solo float plane flight from New Zealand to Australia in the 1930s, when he pioneered aerial celestial nav. He went into some detail and was undoubtably a kind of genius, but completely incomprehensible! The man was not a writer. Or much of a mechanic… and that almost killed him.

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        • kenshirriff@oldbytes.spaceK kenshirriff@oldbytes.space

          In the 1960s, the B-52 bomber could navigate by the stars. Celestial navigation requires spherical trigonometry, so an analog Angle Computer solved these equations electromechanically. Let's look inside...

          mikesiegel@infosec.exchangeM This user is from outside of this forum
          mikesiegel@infosec.exchangeM This user is from outside of this forum
          mikesiegel@infosec.exchange
          wrote last edited by
          #32

          @kenshirriff I was wondering if satellite constellations fucks this up? I think these are still in use and given a dooms day scenario, it's likely anti-SAT weapons will be used and GPS may be jammed or useless.

          sibrosan@mastodon.socialS 1 Reply Last reply
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          • kenshirriff@oldbytes.spaceK kenshirriff@oldbytes.space

            In the 1960s, the B-52 bomber could navigate by the stars. Celestial navigation requires spherical trigonometry, so an analog Angle Computer solved these equations electromechanically. Let's look inside...

            liquid@infosec.exchangeL This user is from outside of this forum
            liquid@infosec.exchangeL This user is from outside of this forum
            liquid@infosec.exchange
            wrote last edited by
            #33

            @kenshirriff i read this as Apple Computer somehow

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            • kenshirriff@oldbytes.spaceK kenshirriff@oldbytes.space

              In the 1960s, the B-52 bomber could navigate by the stars. Celestial navigation requires spherical trigonometry, so an analog Angle Computer solved these equations electromechanically. Let's look inside...

              M This user is from outside of this forum
              M This user is from outside of this forum
              mike805@noc.social
              wrote last edited by
              #34

              @kenshirriff That's quite a piece of mechanical engineering. Aircraft machinery is wildly complicated.

              The B-58 Hustler had the first digital navigation computer on a plane. They came up with a clever low-resource trig function algorithm called CORDIC. This was later used in the first pocket scientific calculators.

              The SR-71 system was informally called R2-D2. That document says it required an air conditioning trailer on the ground.

              M 1 Reply Last reply
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              • M mike805@noc.social

                @kenshirriff That's quite a piece of mechanical engineering. Aircraft machinery is wildly complicated.

                The B-58 Hustler had the first digital navigation computer on a plane. They came up with a clever low-resource trig function algorithm called CORDIC. This was later used in the first pocket scientific calculators.

                The SR-71 system was informally called R2-D2. That document says it required an air conditioning trailer on the ground.

                M This user is from outside of this forum
                M This user is from outside of this forum
                mike805@noc.social
                wrote last edited by
                #35

                @kenshirriff Another example: how did they get 400 Hz AC power from a variable RPM jet engine?

                If you connect a variable displacement hydraulic pump to a hydraulic motor, you get a continuously variable drive, but an inefficient one.

                So they attached that to a differential gear. At cruise the engine speed matches the required generator speed. At idle the hydraulic drive makes up the RPM. At takeoff power, the hydraulic machine runs backward to subtract RPM.

                Now that is real engineering.

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                • kenshirriff@oldbytes.spaceK kenshirriff@oldbytes.space

                  In the 1960s, the B-52 bomber could navigate by the stars. Celestial navigation requires spherical trigonometry, so an analog Angle Computer solved these equations electromechanically. Let's look inside...

                  crumbee@beige.partyC This user is from outside of this forum
                  crumbee@beige.partyC This user is from outside of this forum
                  crumbee@beige.party
                  wrote last edited by
                  #36

                  @kenshirriff
                  My grandfather was a navigator on the B52.

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                  • mikesiegel@infosec.exchangeM mikesiegel@infosec.exchange

                    @kenshirriff I was wondering if satellite constellations fucks this up? I think these are still in use and given a dooms day scenario, it's likely anti-SAT weapons will be used and GPS may be jammed or useless.

                    sibrosan@mastodon.socialS This user is from outside of this forum
                    sibrosan@mastodon.socialS This user is from outside of this forum
                    sibrosan@mastodon.social
                    wrote last edited by
                    #37

                    @mikesiegel @kenshirriff

                    Seems unlikely that these are still in use.

                    mikesiegel@infosec.exchangeM 1 Reply Last reply
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                    • nilz@norden.socialN nilz@norden.social

                      @vk2bea

                      Idk, in WW2 for an allies bomber , wasn't every german town the right town?? 😉

                      @kenshirriff

                      johleut@swiss.socialJ This user is from outside of this forum
                      johleut@swiss.socialJ This user is from outside of this forum
                      johleut@swiss.social
                      wrote last edited by
                      #38

                      @nilz They once bombed Schaffhausen, a Swiss town by accident. @vk2bea @kenshirriff

                      nilz@norden.socialN 1 Reply Last reply
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                      • johleut@swiss.socialJ johleut@swiss.social

                        @nilz They once bombed Schaffhausen, a Swiss town by accident. @vk2bea @kenshirriff

                        nilz@norden.socialN This user is from outside of this forum
                        nilz@norden.socialN This user is from outside of this forum
                        nilz@norden.social
                        wrote last edited by
                        #39

                        @johleut

                        - every german town was the right town
                        - Schaffhausen, a swiss town
                        🤷‍♂️

                        @vk2bea @kenshirriff

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                        • sibrosan@mastodon.socialS sibrosan@mastodon.social

                          @mikesiegel @kenshirriff

                          Seems unlikely that these are still in use.

                          mikesiegel@infosec.exchangeM This user is from outside of this forum
                          mikesiegel@infosec.exchangeM This user is from outside of this forum
                          mikesiegel@infosec.exchange
                          wrote last edited by
                          #40

                          @sibrosan @kenshirriff this is a very old model, but there are more recent celestial navigation systems: https://prod-edam.honeywell.com/content/dam/honeywell-edam/aero/en-us/products/navigation-and-sensors/navigation-systems/celestial-aided-navigation/documents/hon-aero-celestial-aided-navigation-brochure-1493615-n61-3148-000-000.pdf?download=false

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