With the news of the secret $100 million investment in Bluesky by Bain, I keep thinking about protocols.
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With the news of the secret $100 million investment in Bluesky by Bain, I keep thinking about protocols.
Maybe the perceived "drawbacks" of #ActivityPub are ultimately strengths?
#ATproto handles identity in a way that allows a single sign-in across apps. But wouldn't this make it easier to profile you? Is this why crypto VCs are so attracted to it?
And ATproto has funding in the 100s of millions by VCs but at some point they'll want to turn a profit. There is ZERO pressure here to ensh*tt*fy
@_elena@mastodon.social thanks for bringing this up! It was an elephant in the room also when I read the initial specs of ATProto: a cryptographically signed identity that you carry with you across systems may sound like the perfect engineering solution compared to AP, but it's also like leaving your fingerprints wherever you go and having very little control over who can see them.
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With the news of the secret $100 million investment in Bluesky by Bain, I keep thinking about protocols.
Maybe the perceived "drawbacks" of #ActivityPub are ultimately strengths?
#ATproto handles identity in a way that allows a single sign-in across apps. But wouldn't this make it easier to profile you? Is this why crypto VCs are so attracted to it?
And ATproto has funding in the 100s of millions by VCs but at some point they'll want to turn a profit. There is ZERO pressure here to ensh*tt*fy
Same with matrix and xmpp.... Xmpp seems less attractive to this kind of enshitification, while matrix already have a lot of interest by companies, gov and other funds. Xmpp keeps community backed and driven for 27 years 🥳
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@_elena Well…I would say it's "complicated".
I could envision a world where every major country or socioeconomic region has its own ATProto-based social network, because they have the resources to run that kind of infrastructure at scale. Not saying I like the idea, but that seems to be how ATProto was structured. Several *large enterprises* could run services which interoperate.
That's quite different from ActivityPub where you can run a decent social networking instance off a Raspberry Pi.
You can run some of the ATProto infrastructure on a Raspberry Pi as well, with some of the same trade-offs we have here, like not having the full network view.
Stefan Bohacek (@stefan@stefanbohacek.online)
Arguing whether Bluesky is "really" decentralized is increasingly becoming a moot point. "full-network atproto relay on a $4.20/mo VPS" https://bsky.app/profile/bad-example.com/post/3mfkrfvy3ok2u Running a PDS on a Raspberry Pi. https://justingarrison.com/blog/2024-12-02-run-a-bluesky-pds-from-home/ "A Bluesky appview focused on low resource consumption" https://github.com/alnkesq/AppViewLite "full-scale indie atproto relay [...] $30 CAD/mo" https://bsky.app/profile/bad-example.com/post/3lne2wvr5hc2b #bluesky #fediverse
Stefan's Personal Mastodon Server (stefanbohacek.online)
Not really trying to advocate for the Atmosphere here, mind you, but there is quite a lot of momentum over there.
And there is definitely progress, even if it's slow. A bit like here.
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You can run some of the ATProto infrastructure on a Raspberry Pi as well, with some of the same trade-offs we have here, like not having the full network view.
Stefan Bohacek (@stefan@stefanbohacek.online)
Arguing whether Bluesky is "really" decentralized is increasingly becoming a moot point. "full-network atproto relay on a $4.20/mo VPS" https://bsky.app/profile/bad-example.com/post/3mfkrfvy3ok2u Running a PDS on a Raspberry Pi. https://justingarrison.com/blog/2024-12-02-run-a-bluesky-pds-from-home/ "A Bluesky appview focused on low resource consumption" https://github.com/alnkesq/AppViewLite "full-scale indie atproto relay [...] $30 CAD/mo" https://bsky.app/profile/bad-example.com/post/3lne2wvr5hc2b #bluesky #fediverse
Stefan's Personal Mastodon Server (stefanbohacek.online)
Not really trying to advocate for the Atmosphere here, mind you, but there is quite a lot of momentum over there.
And there is definitely progress, even if it's slow. A bit like here.
@stefan @jaredwhite @_elena I've lost perspective on how open the ATProto ecosystem is (and can be) but people I respect are involved and have positive things to say about it. And it seems to have good momentum right now. In my view, having two good ecosystem options (ATProto and ActivityPub) benefits everyone. Better two than zero.
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@stefan @jaredwhite @_elena I've lost perspective on how open the ATProto ecosystem is (and can be) but people I respect are involved and have positive things to say about it. And it seems to have good momentum right now. In my view, having two good ecosystem options (ATProto and ActivityPub) benefits everyone. Better two than zero.
@coreysnipes I do like that there is interest in implementing some of the better ideas here, things like portable identity, or at least better account migration.
But we all know here there is just not enough funding for all the work that's needed.
Yes, Bluesky/Atmosphere is heavily subsidized right now, but still, there is a ton of momentum and excitement around it.
There are people putting in the effort to make the ecosystem more decentralized, many don't like how much control Bluesky the company has.
And they might just very well succeed.
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@coreysnipes I do like that there is interest in implementing some of the better ideas here, things like portable identity, or at least better account migration.
But we all know here there is just not enough funding for all the work that's needed.
Yes, Bluesky/Atmosphere is heavily subsidized right now, but still, there is a ton of momentum and excitement around it.
There are people putting in the effort to make the ecosystem more decentralized, many don't like how much control Bluesky the company has.
And they might just very well succeed.
@stefan
I still believe at some point in the future both protocols will converge. I imagine adding ActivityPub directly on top of a PDS would be one way (there's been a few experiments with that). I know there's a few AtProto apps that would like to add ActivityPub at the Application level. And it's probably only a matter of time before someone sets up an ActivityPub server that lets you sign in with your PDS, there's a lot of options out there, just have to figure out what works best for people (and figure out how to fund it all) -
@stefan @jaredwhite @_elena I've lost perspective on how open the ATProto ecosystem is (and can be) but people I respect are involved and have positive things to say about it. And it seems to have good momentum right now. In my view, having two good ecosystem options (ATProto and ActivityPub) benefits everyone. Better two than zero.
@coreysnipes @stefan @_elena I'm far more bearish to be honest. I don't respect the people working at bsky, I think they have a pattern of gaslighting critics and obfuscating aspects of their enterprise they know won't fit the cozy narrative of their marketing.
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@stefan
I still believe at some point in the future both protocols will converge. I imagine adding ActivityPub directly on top of a PDS would be one way (there's been a few experiments with that). I know there's a few AtProto apps that would like to add ActivityPub at the Application level. And it's probably only a matter of time before someone sets up an ActivityPub server that lets you sign in with your PDS, there's a lot of options out there, just have to figure out what works best for people (and figure out how to fund it all)Yes, this is what I brought believe myself as well.
And you some/all of you might know that wafrn comes with a built-in PDS already.
If I was starting with the fediverse today, I might just be looking into running my server with it instead of Mastodon, honestly.
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Yes, this is what I brought believe myself as well.
And you some/all of you might know that wafrn comes with a built-in PDS already.
If I was starting with the fediverse today, I might just be looking into running my server with it instead of Mastodon, honestly.
@stefan @tom @coreysnipes @_elena that UI…uh, leaves much to be desired.
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@coreysnipes @stefan @_elena I'm far more bearish to be honest. I don't respect the people working at bsky, I think they have a pattern of gaslighting critics and obfuscating aspects of their enterprise they know won't fit the cozy narrative of their marketing.
Well there are the people working at Bluesky the company (doesn't seem to be my crowd either) and then there's the development community trying to make the Atmosphere independent from them.
Not super familiar with the second group, other than folks I already know from here, but I do give them some benefit of doubt.
I mean, some of them are doing some interesting stuff, and again, trying to create independence from Bluesky the company. And that's quite commendable.
Yeah, I'd prefer to see them put in the effort here, but fediverse development is arguably more challenging, and with a smaller and less diverse userbase, probably less rewarding.
