people on reddit are doing a whole lot of yapping about age verification in Linux
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@cas saying "as required by recent laws" indicates a mindset that "what we do here is to implement laws. States make laws, we implement them. That is what this software is about: compliance with laws."
And I think such a mindset goes against the idea of free software.
> I hope i don't just come across as contrarian
I appreciate your answer, and I'm sorry I only answered parts of it!
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@ZanaGB congratulations for delving into conspiracy theory! nobody is interested in the linux desktop, all of those players are into linux server.
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@cas It's as if UNIX carries AN ENTIRE DATABASE of PII in /etc/ without any consideration for user's privacy! Unbelievable!
I think we all need to *demand* from Kernighan and Ritchie to immediately drop /etc/passwd and related files from UNIX, and stop helping the government with collecting this kind of data. It's really appalling that no one has called them out on this yet! The shock! The horror!
@pid_eins @cas UNIX wasn't installed on end-user computers, the same way end-user computers would be surprised that
--delete-tmpfilesremoves their homedir. i am impressed that systemd now realizes it's also used on people's laptops and not just containers but UNIX never had to deal with this because it was expensive and proprietary. least trustworthy thing i've ever read and i have no idea why cas feels the need to defend it at length. postmarketos marketing for a pos -
@pid_eins @cas UNIX wasn't installed on end-user computers, the same way end-user computers would be surprised that
--delete-tmpfilesremoves their homedir. i am impressed that systemd now realizes it's also used on people's laptops and not just containers but UNIX never had to deal with this because it was expensive and proprietary. least trustworthy thing i've ever read and i have no idea why cas feels the need to defend it at length. postmarketos marketing for a pos@pid_eins @cas if you read IBM and the Holocaust you learn people who provided false data to the nazi census were actually considered heroes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ren%C3%A9_Carmille
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@cas implementing birth date in systemd now is showing everyone how this kind of control is technically practical and can be extended and enforced. It'an entirely new torment nexus being implemented right now.
Seeing no problem here is VERY short sighted.
This cant be good.
@f4grx i'm sorry but this is just FUD. GNOME lets you set a profile photo for your user account but we aren't getting up in arms about how any unsandboxed software could upload it and run facial recognition.
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@cas right after installing CrazyOS I'll make a video of it and put it on TikTok, YouTube and Instagram of course (I really dig their services, I have accounts everywhere, ha!). Hey, did you hear the web folks have cookies!
Yummy! So good! -
@cas I usually agree with a lot of your takes, and the ones I don't are usually very minor, but I cannot in good conscience agree with this. Complying in advance is never the proper reaction to any change that could be used to oppress people. Life is not a vacuum. The rise of fascism in the United States and its increasing influence in the rest of the world makes it obvious that these age restriction laws are only for controlling information. Compliance means giving in to fascism.
@justsoup on the one hand, i think id generally fully agree with you here, but in this case i struggle to see how things would be better if systemd/xdg refused to comply. I think it would be contrarian and shallow from an implementation perspective to refuse to store the users DoB in systemd's case, or for XDG to refuse to define a flatpak portal API to get the user's age bracket, both of these are fairly reasonable features were they not motivated by legislation.
i'm glad folks like Jeremy from system76 are pushing back harder against this, and from an individual level I'd agree that we should not comply, but from an OS/distribution perspective it feels like a pretty milquetoast response to just throw up your hands and say "Sorry, if you live in Cali we can't give you our software"...
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"The last thing we want is for users in certain regions to wind up relying on implementations maintained by distros or random individuals, if we need to have this crap the least we could ask is that it's maintained by established and trusted people in the open source community!"
I trust most random individuals more than I trust Poettering's slopcoded garbage. systemd is not a community project and it never has been.
@ki damn i thought i had escaped the systemd haters this time
you quoted me lol, did i say "community project"?
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people on reddit are doing a whole lot of yapping about age verification in Linux
I would generally agree that the whole approach of these laws is total dogshit and clearly a wedge issue to enable stricter surveillance laws in the future
at the same time though, the actual implementation and potentially having a portal which exposes the users age bracket seems totally reasonable as a way to implement parental controls... I'm also not totally against holding service providers to higher standards for data processing when it comes to minors, and hey if they're doing that why shouldn't adults get the same treatment?
what im totally miffed about though is why the fuck would you get mad at systemd for adding a birthDate field to userdb, what would you have them do? Would you rather every desktop environment had its own way to store this data??
An XDG portal for this also means you can *trivially* write a stub that always identifies you as an adult or even lets you pick per-app (heck maybe per website! that might be the new cursed way of avoiding trackers under late stage capitalism)
and yeah it sure would be shit if we get real-id laws in a few years, but systemd or XDG standing on "principle" and refusing to implement this API is absolutely not going to lead to better outcomes for anyone. The last thing we want is for users in certain regions to wind up relying on implementations maintained by distros or random individuals, if we need to have this crap the least we could ask is that it's maintained by established and trusted people in the open source community!
@cas
The history of social progress has shown us that progress never happens by complying with authoritarian laws in advance, quite the contrary. It has always been by resisting as a unified group against authoritarianism. Systemd isn't going for social progress, it's a tool for developing capitalist commercial solutions. They get criticisms primarily because of that, and complying to these laws is inline. They're not a friend in this situation so them doing shit is absolutely unsurprising
You don't need age verification to do parental control. You need guardians acting as actual guardians, educate themselves on what taking care of human beings is. Once again the children are not an excuse for adults' laziness -
@pid_eins @cas UNIX wasn't installed on end-user computers, the same way end-user computers would be surprised that
--delete-tmpfilesremoves their homedir. i am impressed that systemd now realizes it's also used on people's laptops and not just containers but UNIX never had to deal with this because it was expensive and proprietary. least trustworthy thing i've ever read and i have no idea why cas feels the need to defend it at length. postmarketos marketing for a pos@hipsterelectron i think i'm missing several layers of context to understand your point here tbh?? /gen
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@ki damn i thought i had escaped the systemd haters this time
you quoted me lol, did i say "community project"?
@cas
calling out AI slop and toxic practices isn't just "systemd hate," especially when it comes to supporting fascism> "trusted people in the open source community"
if systemd isn't a community project in your opinion, then it's not about "people in the open source community" anyway. And it really isn't. Glad we're on the same page regarding this point.
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@cas
The history of social progress has shown us that progress never happens by complying with authoritarian laws in advance, quite the contrary. It has always been by resisting as a unified group against authoritarianism. Systemd isn't going for social progress, it's a tool for developing capitalist commercial solutions. They get criticisms primarily because of that, and complying to these laws is inline. They're not a friend in this situation so them doing shit is absolutely unsurprising
You don't need age verification to do parental control. You need guardians acting as actual guardians, educate themselves on what taking care of human beings is. Once again the children are not an excuse for adults' laziness@rakoo i agree that systemd is pretty entrenched in capitalism, and i very much agree that complying in advance is super not great.
Where I struggle is with the prescriptive language that systemd or freedesktop shouldn't comply with these laws. This can only harm distros who are then forced to deal with the situation themselves and then what? Now they have to face the backlash based on their explicit decision to comply or not.
Linux distros refusing to comply would carry significantly more weight imho, and I'd advocate for pressuring Ubuntu, Fedora, Suse etc to refuse and make some noise about this. I just can't say the same for the much more legally and financially precarious distros out there
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@cas
> what would you have them do? Would you rather every desktop environment had its own way to store this data??
I'd rather they, and everyone, waits longer
system76 is trying to get US politicians to open exceptions for foss, laws in multiple states are contradictory, and in brasil there's lots of people trying to change that law as they see how bad it is
codifying an api for it now feels so premature and somewhat dangerous, bc what if what they implement is then not allowed in some other state or country?@navi
From a political perspective the government is like thick oil or tar.You can push it with great effort (mass action) but the most important part is that you stand firm to stem the flow. The capitalists control the tables legs.
To comply with bad tendencies will make it easier later to implement worse laws since that is its historically materialist direction at the moment.
I suggest not fighting over this but partner with the eff or fsf for politics, and just do implementation
@cas -
@rakoo i agree that systemd is pretty entrenched in capitalism, and i very much agree that complying in advance is super not great.
Where I struggle is with the prescriptive language that systemd or freedesktop shouldn't comply with these laws. This can only harm distros who are then forced to deal with the situation themselves and then what? Now they have to face the backlash based on their explicit decision to comply or not.
Linux distros refusing to comply would carry significantly more weight imho, and I'd advocate for pressuring Ubuntu, Fedora, Suse etc to refuse and make some noise about this. I just can't say the same for the much more legally and financially precarious distros out there
@cas
Note that the only software that face a backlash are those that comply with authoritarianism, not the others.
yep, that's why all distros, all kernels, all the bits that are concerned need to get together as one voice on this issue. The group takes care of the individuals. Now that systemd has complied, the ones that don't use it will bear all the pressure. And the ones that do use it won't go against systemd's decision because they still are alone.
If anything systemd has become a spof that allows this kind of things to happen -
people on reddit are doing a whole lot of yapping about age verification in Linux
I would generally agree that the whole approach of these laws is total dogshit and clearly a wedge issue to enable stricter surveillance laws in the future
at the same time though, the actual implementation and potentially having a portal which exposes the users age bracket seems totally reasonable as a way to implement parental controls... I'm also not totally against holding service providers to higher standards for data processing when it comes to minors, and hey if they're doing that why shouldn't adults get the same treatment?
what im totally miffed about though is why the fuck would you get mad at systemd for adding a birthDate field to userdb, what would you have them do? Would you rather every desktop environment had its own way to store this data??
An XDG portal for this also means you can *trivially* write a stub that always identifies you as an adult or even lets you pick per-app (heck maybe per website! that might be the new cursed way of avoiding trackers under late stage capitalism)
and yeah it sure would be shit if we get real-id laws in a few years, but systemd or XDG standing on "principle" and refusing to implement this API is absolutely not going to lead to better outcomes for anyone. The last thing we want is for users in certain regions to wind up relying on implementations maintained by distros or random individuals, if we need to have this crap the least we could ask is that it's maintained by established and trusted people in the open source community!
in the replies i expand a bit more on my point that systemd/xdg refusing to comply would more or less force distros to do the work themselves (potentially to a worse standard) or refuse, and in either case have to face the blowback themselves. While we can and should criticise industry backed distros if they blatantly disregard the interests of their users, particularly when they have the power to push back against legislation like this.
However it seems absurd to me to expect small community driven projects to navigate this legislation themselves or have to take the heat for taking steps to protect the livelihoods of their maintainers by complying with this legislation, something they would have to expend more effort in doing if the projects they are built on (systemd, flatpak, GNOME, KDE) took the high road and refused to comply.
I think there is a pretty huge lack of understanding by a lot of even highly technical Linux users when it comes to how the software supply chain of their distro actually works.
Very relevant example:
Danielle Foré (@danirabbit@mastodon.online)
When you tell me to just not implement age declaration, do you understand you’re asking me to risk thousands of dollars in fines? Which means realistically the only way for me to not follow the law is to close my business and stop making elementary OS. Do you think it makes sense for me to decide to have no income right now in the middle of massive tech layoffs in a purely symbolic act of protest? Do you really fully understand this is what you’re asking of me?
Mastodon (mastodon.online)
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in the replies i expand a bit more on my point that systemd/xdg refusing to comply would more or less force distros to do the work themselves (potentially to a worse standard) or refuse, and in either case have to face the blowback themselves. While we can and should criticise industry backed distros if they blatantly disregard the interests of their users, particularly when they have the power to push back against legislation like this.
However it seems absurd to me to expect small community driven projects to navigate this legislation themselves or have to take the heat for taking steps to protect the livelihoods of their maintainers by complying with this legislation, something they would have to expend more effort in doing if the projects they are built on (systemd, flatpak, GNOME, KDE) took the high road and refused to comply.
I think there is a pretty huge lack of understanding by a lot of even highly technical Linux users when it comes to how the software supply chain of their distro actually works.
Very relevant example:
Danielle Foré (@danirabbit@mastodon.online)
When you tell me to just not implement age declaration, do you understand you’re asking me to risk thousands of dollars in fines? Which means realistically the only way for me to not follow the law is to close my business and stop making elementary OS. Do you think it makes sense for me to decide to have no income right now in the middle of massive tech layoffs in a purely symbolic act of protest? Do you really fully understand this is what you’re asking of me?
Mastodon (mastodon.online)
@cas I still think #SystemD should refuse to comply and I will certainly #RefuseToComply with @OS1337 as a matter of principle!
Because #Cyberfascism is bad!
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@cas
Note that the only software that face a backlash are those that comply with authoritarianism, not the others.
yep, that's why all distros, all kernels, all the bits that are concerned need to get together as one voice on this issue. The group takes care of the individuals. Now that systemd has complied, the ones that don't use it will bear all the pressure. And the ones that do use it won't go against systemd's decision because they still are alone.
If anything systemd has become a spof that allows this kind of things to happen@rakoo I agree with your suggestions but i still feel like your analysis isn't fully grounded here. Pushing back is good, coming together to do so is amazing, but it's also not mutually exclusive with ensuring that distro maintainers don't get caught in the net and fined
i expanded a bit more here, id also suggest giving Danieles post I linked to a read
kcxt (@cas@treehouse.systems)
in the replies i expand a bit more on my point that systemd/xdg refusing to comply would more or less force distros to do the work themselves (potentially to a worse standard) or refuse, and in either case have to face the blowback themselves. While we can and should criticise industry backed distros if they blatantly disregard the interests of their users, particularly when they have the power to push back against legislation like this. However it seems absurd to me to expect small community driven projects to navigate this legislation themselves or have to take the heat for taking steps to protect the livelihoods of their maintainers by complying with this legislation, something they would have to expend more effort in doing if the projects they are built on (systemd, flatpak, GNOME, KDE) took the high road and refused to comply. I think there is a pretty huge lack of understanding by a lot of even highly technical Linux users when it comes to how the software supply chain of their distro actually works. Very relevant example: https://mastodon.online/@danirabbit/116250765623660340
Treehouse Mastodon (social.treehouse.systems)
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@cas I still think #SystemD should refuse to comply and I will certainly #RefuseToComply with @OS1337 as a matter of principle!
Because #Cyberfascism is bad!
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people on reddit are doing a whole lot of yapping about age verification in Linux
I would generally agree that the whole approach of these laws is total dogshit and clearly a wedge issue to enable stricter surveillance laws in the future
at the same time though, the actual implementation and potentially having a portal which exposes the users age bracket seems totally reasonable as a way to implement parental controls... I'm also not totally against holding service providers to higher standards for data processing when it comes to minors, and hey if they're doing that why shouldn't adults get the same treatment?
what im totally miffed about though is why the fuck would you get mad at systemd for adding a birthDate field to userdb, what would you have them do? Would you rather every desktop environment had its own way to store this data??
An XDG portal for this also means you can *trivially* write a stub that always identifies you as an adult or even lets you pick per-app (heck maybe per website! that might be the new cursed way of avoiding trackers under late stage capitalism)
and yeah it sure would be shit if we get real-id laws in a few years, but systemd or XDG standing on "principle" and refusing to implement this API is absolutely not going to lead to better outcomes for anyone. The last thing we want is for users in certain regions to wind up relying on implementations maintained by distros or random individuals, if we need to have this crap the least we could ask is that it's maintained by established and trusted people in the open source community!
@cas so basically:
"well, if we're going to slide into fascism and real-id laws, might as well make it user-friendly!"
nope, nope nope nope. Fight this shit every step of the way. Couldn't disagree more strongly with every single thing you've said.
Principles matter, my man. Sometimes they don't make sense, they don't fit in nicely with how an ideal world should be, sometimes they make things more difficult. That's the nature of boycotts, of refusal, of being led by your heart and not by your brain sometimes.
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@cas na. It's just having basic principles!
