So, serious questions.

[bencurthoys@mastodon.social]

@baldur I think the confusion is because at a technical level the two operations are the same, and the difference is in what you intend to do with it afterward, which is not in the bits.

Like the old "what colour are your bits" thing: https://ansuz.sooke.bc.ca/entry/23

[lbruno@miserables.net]

@bencurthoys @baldur

aye, but this is a fallacy: no one asked whether it's the same bits, or whether it starts with the same operation to transfer the bits

technologists who conflate the two aren't smart or aren't good-faith

[baldur@toot.cafe]

@bencurthoys Yeah, that’s definitely a possibility

[lbruno@miserables.net]

@bencurthoys @baldur

my usual reframing is to move from a copyright/licensing discussion to a contract/EULA one, because contract law allows for terms/limitations which licences can't set

[lbruno@miserables.net]

@bencurthoys @baldur

to be explicit, i wasn't pointing my finger at you Ben; i've seen technologists doing what you describe, and i'm not a fan of fallacious reasoning

[clarablackink@writing.exchange]

@baldur It is tied in with piracy culture and it exists alongside the "I made this" meme.

Its just a cultural mindset where some folks live in this bubble beyond understanding that creation is labor and labor is the root of all things.

The ephemeral nature of things online blurs the understanding that digital outputs are tied to reality meaningfully.

It takes effort to see the material nature of things and recognize the difference between building a library and looting one.

[clarablackink@writing.exchange]

@baldur It connects to broader issues with how empty that an existence without ethics or limits is.

It becomes highly philosophical and treads into areas that deal with faith and the metaphysical (dieties optional).

Its silly but a lot of the LLM worship is just folks in extreme pain trying to defile artists as proof that there is no god. I've often seen tech bros trot out...."see, there is no such thing as a soul because a machine can make art".

[einarwh@mastodon.social]

@baldur the privilege of ignorance/lack of distinction that stems from having no skin in the game?

[clarablackink@writing.exchange]

@baldur The point is the harm caused. Not for everyone, some folks really don't see a difference. But, there is a real push to hurt artists on purpose.

There's some envy in there. Its all essentially the plot of Full Metal Alchemist (Brotherhood if you reference the anime).

Its weird in a lot of ways but it makes sense. We're all existing in this highly abstract digital space. Its easy to come undone if you lack some healthy relationship with philosophical/metaphysical/spiritual ideas.

[fred@social.fthevenet.eu]

@baldur sounds like a very classic case of "Fuck You, Got Mine", more than anything else.
Case in point: the same people suddenly becoming quite vocal the minute they perceive something is affecting them directly, like the ability to copyright LLM generated code, and such.

[clarablackink@writing.exchange]

@baldur Artistic practice is generally the easiest way to develop this relationship with your own mind outside of but still connected to the physical world. Creative expression thrives in the digital space, in part because it makes the digital space feel real in ways that code alone doesn't.

So...yeah...

There's some real intent to harm and destroy but a lot of it is tangled up with subconcious frustrations and insecurities.

[tante@tldr.nettime.org]

@baldur it's motivated reasoning. A trick to stop criticism of "AI" companies

[robotistry@fediscience.org]

@baldur There's a difference between people in the world of LLM development and marketing and the world of tech in general.

This is important because I think the crux of the problem is that many of the people who are drawn specifically to developing and marketing LLMs are drawn *because* they are seduced by the illusion that there is no difference between the software world and the physical world.

As a roboticist, I was at a conference (years ago now) where I sat across from a grad student who said, unironically, "So robotics is just a subfield of computer science, right?"

First I burst out laughing (the only class I ever withdrew from was a CS class, and I took it for one day before knowing I needed to find an alternative).

Then I patiently explained that robotics is at the intersection of a Venn diagram including computer science, electrical engineering, mechanical engineering, and domain expertise. In the last ten years, that list has expanded to include systems engineers and mathematicians.

The LLM developers and marketers are the result of a generation of students who never really grasped that things outside the computer have an independent and important existence.

Who still believe that anything that uses software is basically "just a subfield of computer science."

[delta_vee@cosocial.ca]

@baldur Some of those are the same ones who don't see a problem with a lack of data/command separation. Some, though, are same the ones who *revel* in artists getting the shaft, because they believe artists are "rent seekers". (No, I do not understand that second group at all...)

[pappy@thepit.social]

@baldur Most people have the most fundamental understanding of what you're talking about.

[raymaccarthy@mastodon.ie]

@tiotasram @bencurthoys @baldur
LLMs are an attempt at legalising IP theft, normalising plagiarism as moral and not immoral.
Also for a few corporations to control all information.

That's why search is worse that it used to be.