For all the Proton fans
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@serebit @skinnylatte unless you’re planning on self hosting there is literally no other email service you could jump to that hasn’t done the same thing.
@k3ym0 @skinnylatte I mean yeah, but I'll put it this way: Proton sells its service on how unbelievably private it is and how they'd never give away your identity. When they turn around and do it, it stings far more than another company who never made those promises doing the same. Kinda like Target and DEI: it was a complete 180 from the way they'd sold their brand.
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For all the Proton fans
@skinnylatte I got that the implication in the article quote from Proton is if the user had used crypto and not CC then maybe no issue.
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For all the Proton fans
@skinnylatte This headline is incredibly biased. Did Proton help the FBI? Or did they hand over data to the Swiss government that the Swiss government ordered them to, and then the Swiss helped the FBI unmask an anonymous protester?
I keep seeing this post pop up in my feed with permutations of "WHY PROTON DO THIS!?" -- Because they were legally ordered to.
We're doing a disservice to ourselves for not recognizing the bounds of the privacy that Proton, or Tuta, or any other "private" email service provides, and looking at this moment as a failure by the provider - when really it's the failure of a user to recognize the technical & legal bounds of of their comms services to keep them anonymous.
The lesson here, i think, is about opsec, and knowing the bounds of the tools we're employing for whatever our goals are.
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For all the Proton fans
@skinnylatte FFS remember to link to your sources.
This would be the 404 Media article in question: https://www.404media.co/proton-mail-helped-fbi-unmask-anonymous-stop-cop-city-protestor/ -
@skinnylatte I jumped off of them for unrelated reasons. This just reinforces my decision.
@serebit
What's your alternative ?
Asking for a friend...
@skinnylatte -
For all the Proton fans
I've not seen such responses for a long time.
For your next posts you could criticise Microsoft, Musk & Linus Torvalds.
We could make a new "popularity index" this way.
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@skinnylatte I just switched to Proton from Google Workspace, and this doesn't deter me in the least, because privacy != anonymity
@lucas @skinnylatte
Additionally, privacy and encryption != free from consequences of illegal activity.Proton is also zero-knowledge with email and drive, meaning contents is encrypted behind anyone’s purview without the password.
Swiss law requires a retention period of 10 years for financial data. I would have to imagine some of this information might fall under that umbrella.
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@serebit
What's your alternative ?
Asking for a friend...
@skinnylatte@WakinUniverseJo @skinnylatte I switched to https://forwardemail.net. It doesn't currently have a web UI, so I use Thunderbird with it.
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@skinnylatte This headline is incredibly biased. Did Proton help the FBI? Or did they hand over data to the Swiss government that the Swiss government ordered them to, and then the Swiss helped the FBI unmask an anonymous protester?
I keep seeing this post pop up in my feed with permutations of "WHY PROTON DO THIS!?" -- Because they were legally ordered to.
We're doing a disservice to ourselves for not recognizing the bounds of the privacy that Proton, or Tuta, or any other "private" email service provides, and looking at this moment as a failure by the provider - when really it's the failure of a user to recognize the technical & legal bounds of of their comms services to keep them anonymous.
The lesson here, i think, is about opsec, and knowing the bounds of the tools we're employing for whatever our goals are.
@r3dr3clus3 @skinnylatte If you don't have the data, you can be ordered to give it up by whomever, and you can't. Proton mail claims privacy, but it in fact saves enough data to identify a single individual.
The headline is not biased. Proton claims things they actually can't uphold. This is not the fault of the customer. Stop blaming the victim.
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For all the Proton fans
We want to first clarify that Proton did not provide any information to the FBI, the information was obtained from the Swiss justice department via MLAT. Proton only provides the limited information that we have when issued with a legally binding order from Swiss authorities, which can only happen after all Swiss legal checks are passed. This is an important distinction because Proton operates exclusively under Swiss law
I don't use Proton products at all (not for any idealist reasons), but I don't really think this can be much of a condemnation of the company. I don't know what else you can expect them to do in this case.
edit: That said, the real takeaway is that if you want to remain anonymous to a service that can be compelled to hand over data about you (read: more or less any service you might want to use), you should not pay with a credit card linked to your actual name, you should not access it from your home IP address, and you should not use it in any way that links it to your real self.
Proton is security focused, but even they are bound by the laws of the country they operate in. Use TOR, use E2EE, pay with cryptocurrency, maintain hermetic separation between your anonymous and public selves, etc.
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@skinnylatte I jumped off of them for unrelated reasons. This just reinforces my decision.
@skinnylatte @serebit their embrace of crypto is what made me leave.
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@boojum @skinnylatte
What's the point of paying for a privacy-focused email provider that doesn't provide privacy?@freediverx @boojum @skinnylatte That they will protect your privacy to the limit that they legally can, perhaps? A privacy-focused email provider that doesn't abide by the laws of the country they operate in stops existing pretty quickly.
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For all the Proton fans
@skinnylatte I know someone who will have a field day with this story @Tutanota
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@WakinUniverseJo @skinnylatte I switched to https://forwardemail.net. It doesn't currently have a web UI, so I use Thunderbird with it.
@serebit @skinnylatte thanks a bunch
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@skinnylatte @serebit their embrace of crypto is what made me leave.
@rickscully @skinnylatte @serebit
Ironic, had proton accepted Monero, compliance wouldn’t have been possible.
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For all the Proton fans
@skinnylatte So I've seen someone say an alternative is forwardemail.net paired with Thunderbird as an alert native to Proton. Are there any other mailing services?
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We want to first clarify that Proton did not provide any information to the FBI, the information was obtained from the Swiss justice department via MLAT. Proton only provides the limited information that we have when issued with a legally binding order from Swiss authorities, which can only happen after all Swiss legal checks are passed. This is an important distinction because Proton operates exclusively under Swiss law
I don't use Proton products at all (not for any idealist reasons), but I don't really think this can be much of a condemnation of the company. I don't know what else you can expect them to do in this case.
edit: That said, the real takeaway is that if you want to remain anonymous to a service that can be compelled to hand over data about you (read: more or less any service you might want to use), you should not pay with a credit card linked to your actual name, you should not access it from your home IP address, and you should not use it in any way that links it to your real self.
Proton is security focused, but even they are bound by the laws of the country they operate in. Use TOR, use E2EE, pay with cryptocurrency, maintain hermetic separation between your anonymous and public selves, etc.
@taylor @skinnylatte Really surprised that 404 would give it such a hyped headline if that's all it's about.
I don't think even proton's vpn service claims that they can't be compelled to give over the payment details and account information of your VPN account.
This isn't information they've claimed they will or can secure against being compelled like this.
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@r3dr3clus3 @skinnylatte If you don't have the data, you can be ordered to give it up by whomever, and you can't. Proton mail claims privacy, but it in fact saves enough data to identify a single individual.
The headline is not biased. Proton claims things they actually can't uphold. This is not the fault of the customer. Stop blaming the victim.
@Pyrogenesis @r3dr3clus3 @skinnylatte
Privacy does not mean you can’t be identified. That’s anonymity. Privacy means your content is for you and the intended recipients only.
Proton does not advertise anonymity. There is a difference, and that’s important to know as a consumer. -
@k3ym0 @skinnylatte I mean yeah, but I'll put it this way: Proton sells its service on how unbelievably private it is and how they'd never give away your identity. When they turn around and do it, it stings far more than another company who never made those promises doing the same. Kinda like Target and DEI: it was a complete 180 from the way they'd sold their brand.
@serebit @skinnylatte what got him was paying for his “anonymous” account with his Platinum Visa like a normie buying socks on Amazon.
Proton handed over the payment identifier, Swiss authorities passed it to the FBI, and suddenly your anonymity has a name on it.
if you’re not paying with Monero or cash, you don’t have an anonymous email. you have encrypted email with a billing address. those are very different things.
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For all the Proton fans
@skinnylatte displeased as I am about this event, I will contend that you aren't an anonymous anything if you use your US credit card to pay for a service directly. all the banks have anti-"terrorist" KYC going on and if the credit card is associated to a US bank, there it is.
