So I am in a jam with forced upgrades for my #music #studio.
-
So I am in a jam with forced upgrades for my #music #studio. Painful, really. My main workhorse is a #Yamaha #Montage 8. Since the release of the new Montage M, Yamaha has dropped support entirely for the first gen model. Its audio interface driver only supports up to #MacOS 14, but still works under 15.0. I receive daily warning messages that further OS updates will break it. Yamaha has stopped development on the driver.
To complicate things, I have an Intel #MacPro for which #Apple will be dropping support in the near future. It was and is only a matter of time. Due to the driver support issue I am forced to keep my Mac at OS 15.0.1. But wait, there's more...
If I upgrade my OS, then I risk breaking the driver and thus lose the capability o 32 channels of #audio and #MIDI over #USB. I use both the analog outputs and the USB, including feeding DAW tracks back into the #synthesizer for additional real time processing. My entire workflow, which I have developed since investing in the MacPro, *will* break and projects which I have started will not be completed. Period.
if that isn't painful enough, the New Yamaha Montage M8X is $5,000. While this is an amazing machine and does include a wealth of new features I'd immediately use (including a faster and more robust #machinelearning engine), these costs of both a new #workstation and new #computer are staggeringly high.
If Yamaha hadn't dropped support for its driver, I'd be fine continuing to use a last generation instrument.
And no, switch to a different workstation, ie #Roland or #Korg is simply not an option. Switching to #Windows also isn't an option for specifically ASIO vs CoreAudio reasons. In short, MacOS allows aggregation of audio devices. I have combined my two separate interfaces (Focusrite Scarlett 18i20 + OctoPre Dynamic via #ADAT *and* the Montage interface) for a seamless massive 50 inputs and 26 outputs. Windows uses ASIO, which can only use one interface at a time. #Windows11 still does not offer this feature. Switching to #Linux also isn't an option because neither Yamaha nor Focusrite support Linux and neither does my software.
Ugh....
#pain #musictechnology #musictech #tech #technology #musicproduction
@peteorrall
can you run the old macos version in a VM? -
So I am in a jam with forced upgrades for my #music #studio. Painful, really. My main workhorse is a #Yamaha #Montage 8. Since the release of the new Montage M, Yamaha has dropped support entirely for the first gen model. Its audio interface driver only supports up to #MacOS 14, but still works under 15.0. I receive daily warning messages that further OS updates will break it. Yamaha has stopped development on the driver.
To complicate things, I have an Intel #MacPro for which #Apple will be dropping support in the near future. It was and is only a matter of time. Due to the driver support issue I am forced to keep my Mac at OS 15.0.1. But wait, there's more...
If I upgrade my OS, then I risk breaking the driver and thus lose the capability o 32 channels of #audio and #MIDI over #USB. I use both the analog outputs and the USB, including feeding DAW tracks back into the #synthesizer for additional real time processing. My entire workflow, which I have developed since investing in the MacPro, *will* break and projects which I have started will not be completed. Period.
if that isn't painful enough, the New Yamaha Montage M8X is $5,000. While this is an amazing machine and does include a wealth of new features I'd immediately use (including a faster and more robust #machinelearning engine), these costs of both a new #workstation and new #computer are staggeringly high.
If Yamaha hadn't dropped support for its driver, I'd be fine continuing to use a last generation instrument.
And no, switch to a different workstation, ie #Roland or #Korg is simply not an option. Switching to #Windows also isn't an option for specifically ASIO vs CoreAudio reasons. In short, MacOS allows aggregation of audio devices. I have combined my two separate interfaces (Focusrite Scarlett 18i20 + OctoPre Dynamic via #ADAT *and* the Montage interface) for a seamless massive 50 inputs and 26 outputs. Windows uses ASIO, which can only use one interface at a time. #Windows11 still does not offer this feature. Switching to #Linux also isn't an option because neither Yamaha nor Focusrite support Linux and neither does my software.
Ugh....
#pain #musictechnology #musictech #tech #technology #musicproduction
@peteorrall Have you looked at the MODX M8 ?
Yamaha MODX M8 vs Yamaha Montage M8X | jamesm.blog
Synth-shopping is one of those delightful rabbit holes where technology, creativity, and philosophy collide. Yamaha’s MODX M8 and Montage M8X share the same genetic code — three powerful sound engines — but they live in different worlds when it comes to feel, performance depth, and long-term ambition. If you’re torn between them, this breakdown should make your choice a whole lot easier. (Image:Yamaha MODX M8) (Image: Yamaha Montage M8X)
(jamesm.blog)
I dunno about Montage M, but the MODX M should have USB class compliant audio interface - which means pretty standard USB audio interface drivers should work on basically all platforms. I've not tested/checked this myself, so take it with a huge grain of salt.
And I would double check if that's the case with the Montage as well, or at least Montage M if you decide to upgrade to that one. I'd love a Montage M myself, but find the both the price and the physical weight just too much.
-
@peteorrall Have you looked at the MODX M8 ?
Yamaha MODX M8 vs Yamaha Montage M8X | jamesm.blog
Synth-shopping is one of those delightful rabbit holes where technology, creativity, and philosophy collide. Yamaha’s MODX M8 and Montage M8X share the same genetic code — three powerful sound engines — but they live in different worlds when it comes to feel, performance depth, and long-term ambition. If you’re torn between them, this breakdown should make your choice a whole lot easier. (Image:Yamaha MODX M8) (Image: Yamaha Montage M8X)
(jamesm.blog)
I dunno about Montage M, but the MODX M should have USB class compliant audio interface - which means pretty standard USB audio interface drivers should work on basically all platforms. I've not tested/checked this myself, so take it with a huge grain of salt.
And I would double check if that's the case with the Montage as well, or at least Montage M if you decide to upgrade to that one. I'd love a Montage M myself, but find the both the price and the physical weight just too much.
@dazo I looked at the MODX M. Unfortunately one of the things they dropped *entirely* is aftertouch. Not only do many of my current patches use it, I'd also lose the functionality as a MIDI controller for softsynths.
I don't mind the weight. Yes, 63 pounds for a synth is heavy but mine doesn't leave the studio.
As for the USB interface itself. I've heard/read it's class compliant but I also distinctly recall the OS not seeing it until I installed the driver.
<tangent>
If it is truly class compliant, then I'd be curious to see whether Linux can use it. While it would be interesting to use Linux as a DAW, especially considering the performance improvements over MacOS and certainly Windows, my concern is disruptive workflow change.
</tangent> -
@peteorrall
can you run the old macos version in a VM?@dietzel I will have to think about this.
-
@dazo I looked at the MODX M. Unfortunately one of the things they dropped *entirely* is aftertouch. Not only do many of my current patches use it, I'd also lose the functionality as a MIDI controller for softsynths.
I don't mind the weight. Yes, 63 pounds for a synth is heavy but mine doesn't leave the studio.
As for the USB interface itself. I've heard/read it's class compliant but I also distinctly recall the OS not seeing it until I installed the driver.
<tangent>
If it is truly class compliant, then I'd be curious to see whether Linux can use it. While it would be interesting to use Linux as a DAW, especially considering the performance improvements over MacOS and certainly Windows, my concern is disruptive workflow change.
</tangent>@peteorrall Ahh, I thought I read it was the poly-aftertouch it lacked, not completely.
Regarding Linux, I see there are are more reports among Linux users with MODX success. I'm going to show up in a shop in coming weeks to test it out myself - I've used Linux exclusively for 20+ years, not going to change now (even though just newly started with DAW/Audio on Linux).
I'm considering MODX M as a replacement for my Motif XS (which just barely lighter than Montage M). But I'm looking for something much more portable. If it's mostly stationary in a studio, Montage M would be way more tempting for me as well.
-
@peteorrall Ahh, I thought I read it was the poly-aftertouch it lacked, not completely.
Regarding Linux, I see there are are more reports among Linux users with MODX success. I'm going to show up in a shop in coming weeks to test it out myself - I've used Linux exclusively for 20+ years, not going to change now (even though just newly started with DAW/Audio on Linux).
I'm considering MODX M as a replacement for my Motif XS (which just barely lighter than Montage M). But I'm looking for something much more portable. If it's mostly stationary in a studio, Montage M would be way more tempting for me as well.
@dazo Debian is my daily driver and has been for two decades. As capable as Linux is, it's still lagging far behind Mac and Windows for hardware and software support (which many of my tools are).
I did dabble in JACK for a little bit but found it (at the time 2022) convoluted enough to warrant an engineering degree. I still need to explore PipeWire. Montage M audio drivers are one thing but I also use a Scarlet 18i20. While Focusrite doesn't offer a native Linux driver, someone did write one. I haven't used it myself, but this is where my skepticism begins. I need supported solutions, not hacks.
And then there's also figuring out MIDI on Linux, which is another can of worms which needs investigating.
-
@dazo Debian is my daily driver and has been for two decades. As capable as Linux is, it's still lagging far behind Mac and Windows for hardware and software support (which many of my tools are).
I did dabble in JACK for a little bit but found it (at the time 2022) convoluted enough to warrant an engineering degree. I still need to explore PipeWire. Montage M audio drivers are one thing but I also use a Scarlet 18i20. While Focusrite doesn't offer a native Linux driver, someone did write one. I haven't used it myself, but this is where my skepticism begins. I need supported solutions, not hacks.
And then there's also figuring out MIDI on Linux, which is another can of worms which needs investigating.
@peteorrall I've used both Rubix 44 and now I use Motu M4 without any issues. I'm on RHEL-10 which ships with Pipewire by default. The Rubix card could be quite a bit annoying with Pulse/Jack on RHEL-8.
A few weeks ago, I tried running Ardour with the CollaB3 VST in a live setting on the RHEL-10 with MOTU M4. That worked fine. I'm not too happy with the latency, it was somewhat noticeable for me as the player but not too bad. But this system is untuned, so it wasn't that bad as an out-of-box- experience on Linux. It would be better if no tuning would be needed, but it's a good start.
I had one sound glitch we spotted at a soundcheck, where Ardour/CollaB3 had some unknown noise - that appeared after running idle for some hours. A restart of Ardour solved it though.
But I see that the hardware and software stacks are more challenging on Linux. If you're not following @mosgaard, I'd recommend that. He has moved from Mac to Linux to see if it is capable. He ended up with CachyOS, IIRC. I'd recommend following him
-
So I am in a jam with forced upgrades for my #music #studio. Painful, really. My main workhorse is a #Yamaha #Montage 8. Since the release of the new Montage M, Yamaha has dropped support entirely for the first gen model. Its audio interface driver only supports up to #MacOS 14, but still works under 15.0. I receive daily warning messages that further OS updates will break it. Yamaha has stopped development on the driver.
To complicate things, I have an Intel #MacPro for which #Apple will be dropping support in the near future. It was and is only a matter of time. Due to the driver support issue I am forced to keep my Mac at OS 15.0.1. But wait, there's more...
If I upgrade my OS, then I risk breaking the driver and thus lose the capability o 32 channels of #audio and #MIDI over #USB. I use both the analog outputs and the USB, including feeding DAW tracks back into the #synthesizer for additional real time processing. My entire workflow, which I have developed since investing in the MacPro, *will* break and projects which I have started will not be completed. Period.
if that isn't painful enough, the New Yamaha Montage M8X is $5,000. While this is an amazing machine and does include a wealth of new features I'd immediately use (including a faster and more robust #machinelearning engine), these costs of both a new #workstation and new #computer are staggeringly high.
If Yamaha hadn't dropped support for its driver, I'd be fine continuing to use a last generation instrument.
And no, switch to a different workstation, ie #Roland or #Korg is simply not an option. Switching to #Windows also isn't an option for specifically ASIO vs CoreAudio reasons. In short, MacOS allows aggregation of audio devices. I have combined my two separate interfaces (Focusrite Scarlett 18i20 + OctoPre Dynamic via #ADAT *and* the Montage interface) for a seamless massive 50 inputs and 26 outputs. Windows uses ASIO, which can only use one interface at a time. #Windows11 still does not offer this feature. Switching to #Linux also isn't an option because neither Yamaha nor Focusrite support Linux and neither does my software.
Ugh....
#pain #musictechnology #musictech #tech #technology #musicproduction
@peteorrall If you don't mind me asking, what is forcing you to update your OS/setup? I know people running their setup unchanged - including operating system and DAW - for anything from 5 to 15 years. As long as eveything runs and the hardware doesn't fail, there's no reason to update, is it? Or am I missing something? I'm curious.
-
@peteorrall If you don't mind me asking, what is forcing you to update your OS/setup? I know people running their setup unchanged - including operating system and DAW - for anything from 5 to 15 years. As long as eveything runs and the hardware doesn't fail, there's no reason to update, is it? Or am I missing something? I'm curious.
@Bitstreem I am aware many people run the same setup for *years*. I'd love that to be the case. It doesn't seem like it for me, however. The driving factor is Yamaha no longer is developing drivers or support for the Montage USB audio interface. The most recent driver supports as late as MacOS 14. It's still working for me under 15.0.1 but the OS is warning me that future updates will risk breaking it.
I rely on both analog out (via Focusrite audio interface) and audio+MIDI over the Montage's USB interface for my workflow. The synth is basically one massive multitimbral modular synth. Each instrument part is modulating others with envelope followers and each instrument needs to be on its own channel, not summed down to a analog stereo mix. However, I do real time processing of DAW stuff on the Montage via its stereo inputs and then send out via the analog outs.
-
@Bitstreem I am aware many people run the same setup for *years*. I'd love that to be the case. It doesn't seem like it for me, however. The driving factor is Yamaha no longer is developing drivers or support for the Montage USB audio interface. The most recent driver supports as late as MacOS 14. It's still working for me under 15.0.1 but the OS is warning me that future updates will risk breaking it.
I rely on both analog out (via Focusrite audio interface) and audio+MIDI over the Montage's USB interface for my workflow. The synth is basically one massive multitimbral modular synth. Each instrument part is modulating others with envelope followers and each instrument needs to be on its own channel, not summed down to a analog stereo mix. However, I do real time processing of DAW stuff on the Montage via its stereo inputs and then send out via the analog outs.
@peteorrall @peteorrall Ok, so the issue is the Montage driver? Are you being forced to update this, or are you worried about future stability and functionality issues if you stop updating it? Not trying to be difficult here, just trying to understand the specific reason you are being forced to upgrade. To put it bluntly: if everything works at the moment, back that stuff up like heck, pull the internet connection and keep on keepin' on.
-
@peteorrall I've used both Rubix 44 and now I use Motu M4 without any issues. I'm on RHEL-10 which ships with Pipewire by default. The Rubix card could be quite a bit annoying with Pulse/Jack on RHEL-8.
A few weeks ago, I tried running Ardour with the CollaB3 VST in a live setting on the RHEL-10 with MOTU M4. That worked fine. I'm not too happy with the latency, it was somewhat noticeable for me as the player but not too bad. But this system is untuned, so it wasn't that bad as an out-of-box- experience on Linux. It would be better if no tuning would be needed, but it's a good start.
I had one sound glitch we spotted at a soundcheck, where Ardour/CollaB3 had some unknown noise - that appeared after running idle for some hours. A restart of Ardour solved it though.
But I see that the hardware and software stacks are more challenging on Linux. If you're not following @mosgaard, I'd recommend that. He has moved from Mac to Linux to see if it is capable. He ended up with CachyOS, IIRC. I'd recommend following him
Great info, much appreciated. I haven't used MOTU interfaces before. What's the Linux support/compatibility like?
Focusrite officially does not support Linux. Linux supports my 1st gen Scarlett 2i4 natively, which is great for basic audio tasks. My main workhorse is the 2nd gen Scarlett 18i20. Linux sees it but audio doesn't play thru it. Someone did write a driver but I haven't yet had a chance test it. The larger Scarlett interfaces require the management tool for routing and such.
I will reach out to @mosgaard
-
Great info, much appreciated. I haven't used MOTU interfaces before. What's the Linux support/compatibility like?
Focusrite officially does not support Linux. Linux supports my 1st gen Scarlett 2i4 natively, which is great for basic audio tasks. My main workhorse is the 2nd gen Scarlett 18i20. Linux sees it but audio doesn't play thru it. Someone did write a driver but I haven't yet had a chance test it. The larger Scarlett interfaces require the management tool for routing and such.
I will reach out to @mosgaard
@peteorrall you are always welcome to reach out if you have any questions.
My setup is described here:
For Focusrite, check out Sessionmixer by @fortifieduniverse: https://github.com/michaelquigley/sessionmixer
-
Great info, much appreciated. I haven't used MOTU interfaces before. What's the Linux support/compatibility like?
Focusrite officially does not support Linux. Linux supports my 1st gen Scarlett 2i4 natively, which is great for basic audio tasks. My main workhorse is the 2nd gen Scarlett 18i20. Linux sees it but audio doesn't play thru it. Someone did write a driver but I haven't yet had a chance test it. The larger Scarlett interfaces require the management tool for routing and such.
I will reach out to @mosgaard
I did some kind of research before going for MOTU. It's not an official support, AFAIR, but it's a USB class compliant. And Pipewire detects more "modes" it can be configured to use as well. So it looks good there - and I have full control of input and outputs.
So far I'm happy with it, and the glitches I sometimes had with the Rubix device (noise appearing after unplugging and replugging the USB device) is not appearing with the MOTU so far.
-
R relay@relay.infosec.exchange shared this topic
