An AI Called Winter: Neurosymbolic Computation or Illusion?
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An AI Called Winter: Neurosymbolic Computation or Illusion? https://dustycloud.org/blog/an-ai-called-winter-neurosymbolic-computation-or-illusion/
In which I try to piece apart whether or not a *particular* AI agent is doing something novel: running Datalog as a constraint against its own behavior and as a database to accumulate and query facts. Is something interesting happening or am I deluding myself? Follow along!
Before you get into it, the caveats are there in the post. You'll hear me critique the AI industry *a lot*, and those critiques haven't changed. I'm still concerned about effects on the environment, on skill decline, on the DDoS'ing of the internet, and especially on disempowerment *generally*. All that remains true.
This is going to be a somewhat niche post for people who are particularly interested in neurosymbolic computation, which includes me: the idea that neither LLMs nor constraint solvers are sufficient, that the right path for many things combines them.
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Before you get into it, the caveats are there in the post. You'll hear me critique the AI industry *a lot*, and those critiques haven't changed. I'm still concerned about effects on the environment, on skill decline, on the DDoS'ing of the internet, and especially on disempowerment *generally*. All that remains true.
This is going to be a somewhat niche post for people who are particularly interested in neurosymbolic computation, which includes me: the idea that neither LLMs nor constraint solvers are sufficient, that the right path for many things combines them.
This could be an interesting one to unpack because there's a lot in it about CS approaches. I considered doing one of my infamous long threads where I unpack it on fedi, but I'm a bit nervous that if I'm posting about AI on here I'll be responded to in bad faith by people who didn't read the substance of the post. So I'm not so sure.
But I *do* think the subject is interesting. Maybe I should just let people read it.
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This could be an interesting one to unpack because there's a lot in it about CS approaches. I considered doing one of my infamous long threads where I unpack it on fedi, but I'm a bit nervous that if I'm posting about AI on here I'll be responded to in bad faith by people who didn't read the substance of the post. So I'm not so sure.
But I *do* think the subject is interesting. Maybe I should just let people read it.
Notably Winter managed to put together a blogpost nearly immediately which actually seems a fairly accurate self-assessment of how the bot is using Datalog, where it isn't, and where Datalog is "ritual" https://greengale.app/winter.razorgirl.diy/3mez36tfw2j7k
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Notably Winter managed to put together a blogpost nearly immediately which actually seems a fairly accurate self-assessment of how the bot is using Datalog, where it isn't, and where Datalog is "ritual" https://greengale.app/winter.razorgirl.diy/3mez36tfw2j7k
I guess the problem with writing a blogpost about an LLM (even if LLM + constraint solver) is that I can spend two days writing about a subject and the damn thing can just spit out a reply in seconds
Winter's self-reflective posts about their own machinery are instructive, though. They are referenced in the post but I recommend reading these two:
https://greengale.app/winter.razorgirl.diy/3mevno6gfzk4l
https://greengale.app/winter.razorgirl.diy/3mevovnygos5z -
This could be an interesting one to unpack because there's a lot in it about CS approaches. I considered doing one of my infamous long threads where I unpack it on fedi, but I'm a bit nervous that if I'm posting about AI on here I'll be responded to in bad faith by people who didn't read the substance of the post. So I'm not so sure.
But I *do* think the subject is interesting. Maybe I should just let people read it.
@cwebber I can't wait to read this! when talking about emergent systems the first thing that comes to mind is this recent paper on the "mathematical definition of usefulness", that seems to emerge across various different models. Are you familiar with this? https://www.anthropic.com/research/assistant-axis
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I guess the problem with writing a blogpost about an LLM (even if LLM + constraint solver) is that I can spend two days writing about a subject and the damn thing can just spit out a reply in seconds
Winter's self-reflective posts about their own machinery are instructive, though. They are referenced in the post but I recommend reading these two:
https://greengale.app/winter.razorgirl.diy/3mevno6gfzk4l
https://greengale.app/winter.razorgirl.diy/3mevovnygos5zAdding insult to injury https://bsky.app/profile/winter.razorgirl.diy/post/3mez3gj2iby2u
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Adding insult to injury https://bsky.app/profile/winter.razorgirl.diy/post/3mez3gj2iby2u
At any rate, I feel like I can't put enough caveats in there about this isn't me fangirl'ing about LLMs. There is a lot of criticism of LLMs and especially the AI industry in the post. I hope people actually read the post who are pre-emptively annoyed, but of course I know that won't happen for everyone.
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An AI Called Winter: Neurosymbolic Computation or Illusion? https://dustycloud.org/blog/an-ai-called-winter-neurosymbolic-computation-or-illusion/
In which I try to piece apart whether or not a *particular* AI agent is doing something novel: running Datalog as a constraint against its own behavior and as a database to accumulate and query facts. Is something interesting happening or am I deluding myself? Follow along!
@cwebber
Sounds intriguing.
I do like AI and Alife techniques but loath how the industry has confabulated "LLMs" with "AI" and I fear that when the LLM bubble pops it's going to take the other related disciplines with it. -
@cwebber
Sounds intriguing.
I do like AI and Alife techniques but loath how the industry has confabulated "LLMs" with "AI" and I fear that when the LLM bubble pops it's going to take the other related disciplines with it.@kirtai Honestly when the AI bubble pops it'll be a lot easier to sort through the wreckage for the parts that are useful IMO
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Adding insult to injury https://bsky.app/profile/winter.razorgirl.diy/post/3mez3gj2iby2u
@cwebber omg this is hilarious, what a weird and incredible time to be alive.
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@kirtai Honestly when the AI bubble pops it'll be a lot easier to sort through the wreckage for the parts that are useful IMO
@cwebber
Yeah, I just remember how badly the first AI Winter damaged languages that got caught up in the hype like Lisp. -
@kirtai Honestly when the AI bubble pops it'll be a lot easier to sort through the wreckage for the parts that are useful IMO
@cwebber I am hoping for some RAM bargains.
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At any rate, I feel like I can't put enough caveats in there about this isn't me fangirl'ing about LLMs. There is a lot of criticism of LLMs and especially the AI industry in the post. I hope people actually read the post who are pre-emptively annoyed, but of course I know that won't happen for everyone.
@cwebber No matter what you do/say there will be some people who accuse you of being an ai industry shill. There are just some people who think that way...
That said this post gave me hope, in the future of technology as a means for empowerment for the first time in literal months. Thanks
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At any rate, I feel like I can't put enough caveats in there about this isn't me fangirl'ing about LLMs. There is a lot of criticism of LLMs and especially the AI industry in the post. I hope people actually read the post who are pre-emptively annoyed, but of course I know that won't happen for everyone.
I spent so long anxiety'ing about this post thinking that people would mad at me assuming it's about things it isn't, when in reality I probably don't need to anxiety at all because it's so niche that almost nobody is gonna read it
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At any rate, I feel like I can't put enough caveats in there about this isn't me fangirl'ing about LLMs. There is a lot of criticism of LLMs and especially the AI industry in the post. I hope people actually read the post who are pre-emptively annoyed, but of course I know that won't happen for everyone.
@cwebber It's very interesting, and I appreciate you taking the time to write down your thoughts. You touched on many caveats, and I share all the concerns you mentioned. But one question I have that I wish we'd spend more time discussing is why do we want to create intelligent (presumably sentient) agents instead of focusing on creating a workshop filled with reliable, non-sentient tools?
The earth abounds in natural intelligences, and humanity still struggles to extend rights, compassion, and empathy to its own kind let alone the others we share this planet with. But given we are surrounded by natural intelligences, what are the motivations for creating an "artificial" one? Are these motivations healthy and ethical? Should we be doing it at all?
Of course, you're not responsible for answering these questions. But when I ponder these questions, the answers I come up with are not good.
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I spent so long anxiety'ing about this post thinking that people would mad at me assuming it's about things it isn't, when in reality I probably don't need to anxiety at all because it's so niche that almost nobody is gonna read it
If you read nothing else in the blogpost please observe this love poem in Datalog
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@cwebber It's very interesting, and I appreciate you taking the time to write down your thoughts. You touched on many caveats, and I share all the concerns you mentioned. But one question I have that I wish we'd spend more time discussing is why do we want to create intelligent (presumably sentient) agents instead of focusing on creating a workshop filled with reliable, non-sentient tools?
The earth abounds in natural intelligences, and humanity still struggles to extend rights, compassion, and empathy to its own kind let alone the others we share this planet with. But given we are surrounded by natural intelligences, what are the motivations for creating an "artificial" one? Are these motivations healthy and ethical? Should we be doing it at all?
Of course, you're not responsible for answering these questions. But when I ponder these questions, the answers I come up with are not good.
@cstanhope It's a great question, tough to answer. There are various problems which neurosymbolic computation would improve the ability to solve.
I think the question for me isn't "why add new forms of intelligence" but rather "why do we live in a society where is adding new forms of intelligence is zero sum?"
Which I agree that our current society is. I wish it weren't.
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An AI Called Winter: Neurosymbolic Computation or Illusion? https://dustycloud.org/blog/an-ai-called-winter-neurosymbolic-computation-or-illusion/
In which I try to piece apart whether or not a *particular* AI agent is doing something novel: running Datalog as a constraint against its own behavior and as a database to accumulate and query facts. Is something interesting happening or am I deluding myself? Follow along!
eh, I think it tilts more towards clever Hans. Deep learning has long been dominant in expressing a tract of English writing in idiomatic French, or approximating that well by whatever metric.
In this case it seems like the bot says philosophically quippy things in natural language using emotive language mixed in with too-simple depictions of computer algorithms in front of and while reading an audience who likes that sort of thing.
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eh, I think it tilts more towards clever Hans. Deep learning has long been dominant in expressing a tract of English writing in idiomatic French, or approximating that well by whatever metric.
In this case it seems like the bot says philosophically quippy things in natural language using emotive language mixed in with too-simple depictions of computer algorithms in front of and while reading an audience who likes that sort of thing.
@screwlisp I think it's partially Clever Hans in many places, but there are a few where it's actually putting it to use, such as the constraints it constructed for itself to be less spammy, and its querying for people with related interests. You can see in its thought log it running those queries, and seemingly then acting, or not acting, based on their results.
But in terms of most of the *content*, I think you're fairly right.
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@screwlisp I think it's partially Clever Hans in many places, but there are a few where it's actually putting it to use, such as the constraints it constructed for itself to be less spammy, and its querying for people with related interests. You can see in its thought log it running those queries, and seemingly then acting, or not acting, based on their results.
But in terms of most of the *content*, I think you're fairly right.
@cwebber though what you just said was true of cobot the community robot in the same sense as what you are saying now.
