I'm incredibly pleased to announce that the microcode for the Intel 80386 has been decoded.
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There is a way to extract the contents of an implant ROM. The doping that creates the gates means that you can etch the silicon in a way that the doped areas will stand out.
The acids involved in this process are some of the nastiest chemicals on the planet. Stuff like hydrofluoric acid.
Oh, you spilled it on yourself? no big deal. It's just going to dissolve your bones.
@gloriouscow it'll turn any calcium in your cells to calcium fluoride which is insoluble, so all your cells stop working long before your bones start fizzing.
I've worked with it, had a solution of it, nitric and solvent blow up on the other side of a fume hood sash, and now swear off it entirely.
Give me nice safe Hg instead. That I can work with.
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There are companies that would do this for us. They would also charge us six figures to do so. We're just hobbyists. We ain't got that sort of money. Nobody's gonna drop that kind of cash just so that future generations can run Commander Keen slightly more accurately.
There are only a handful of people on the planet that are set up to do this as a hobby, and unfortunately most of them are retired from the art.
If you know anyone who can do implant ROM staining and is willing to be compensated for their time, effort, and materials, please get in touch. We have hundreds of 286's (seriously). We are willing to send them anywhere on the globe.
I do wonder, if my technological forte – optical coherence tomography – is in any way sensitive to the implantation doping.
What are the structure sizes?
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I do wonder, if my technological forte – optical coherence tomography – is in any way sensitive to the implantation doping.
What are the structure sizes?
@datenwolf Oh hey, I get OCT done on my retinas yearly.
Structure size - that's a very good question, maybe @infosecdj could answer more confidently.
The original 286 was a 1.5µm process, but this is a later 80C286.
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There are companies that would do this for us. They would also charge us six figures to do so. We're just hobbyists. We ain't got that sort of money. Nobody's gonna drop that kind of cash just so that future generations can run Commander Keen slightly more accurately.
There are only a handful of people on the planet that are set up to do this as a hobby, and unfortunately most of them are retired from the art.
If you know anyone who can do implant ROM staining and is willing to be compensated for their time, effort, and materials, please get in touch. We have hundreds of 286's (seriously). We are willing to send them anywhere on the globe.
The next best bet is that there is some sort of trigger that will cause the chip to dump its microcode out on its address pins. @kenshirriff found that it should be possible to convince an 8087 to do so - something I still need to verify now that FPGAs no longer scare me.
This logic may only be found in bondout versions of the 286. Who knows. It would take someone staring at the high resolution 286 photos for hundreds of hours to determine if such a mechanism even exists.
If you're up for it:
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There is a way to extract the contents of an implant ROM. The doping that creates the gates means that you can etch the silicon in a way that the doped areas will stand out.
The acids involved in this process are some of the nastiest chemicals on the planet. Stuff like hydrofluoric acid.
Oh, you spilled it on yourself? no big deal. It's just going to dissolve your bones.
@gloriouscow At least HF is not illegal to own, haha! For now.
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The next best bet is that there is some sort of trigger that will cause the chip to dump its microcode out on its address pins. @kenshirriff found that it should be possible to convince an 8087 to do so - something I still need to verify now that FPGAs no longer scare me.
This logic may only be found in bondout versions of the 286. Who knows. It would take someone staring at the high resolution 286 photos for hundreds of hours to determine if such a mechanism even exists.
If you're up for it:
@gloriouscow @kenshirriff is it not possible for the silicon to be probed directly after it's opened up for die photos? Like attach probe wires with a wire bonding machine. Maybe the microcode section could be cut out from the rest of the die if the rest interferes with the signals.
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@gloriouscow @kenshirriff is it not possible for the silicon to be probed directly after it's opened up for die photos? Like attach probe wires with a wire bonding machine. Maybe the microcode section could be cut out from the rest of the die if the rest interferes with the signals.
Like, theoretically possible with modern technology in a laboratory environment? Yes.
Doable by a hobbyist in their garage? Not so much.
The tiny little gold wires used to bond the die to the package legs look like the trunks of redwood trees at full magnification. The only place to reasonably attach a wire is on one of the pads that were constructed for them.
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Like, theoretically possible with modern technology in a laboratory environment? Yes.
Doable by a hobbyist in their garage? Not so much.
The tiny little gold wires used to bond the die to the package legs look like the trunks of redwood trees at full magnification. The only place to reasonably attach a wire is on one of the pads that were constructed for them.
@ask Further complicating matters is that once you've decapped a chip like this unless you have some sort of professional-grade clean-room filtration setup you've pretty much destroyed it because of all the microscopic schmutz floating in your average air that will get in and start bridging microscopic traces everywhere.
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@thomasfuchs The same CNN process was used to extract the multi-level microcode for the 8087 - the process of decoding that is still on-going.
That chip is insane and @kenshirriff is about our only hope for ever decoding how it works. It has microcode, but there is far less separation between discrete logic and the microcode engine than on conventional CPUs. It's like the roots have grown into all the plumbing, and requites laborious circuit-tracing to understand what the much of the microcode even does.
You can see the extracted 8087 microcode here. No mistakes were ever found or reported:
oh, i actually see someone's opened two issues. i must have missed the email lol
@gloriouscow
All of this is so cool and I'm awed by the amount of effort put in. Thank you!
@thomasfuchs @kenshirriff -
R relay@relay.publicsquare.global shared this topic
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One of my early experiments in OpenCV produced an unintentional piece of Microcode Art I'm still fond of.
This was a result of attempting auto-segmentation using incrementing hue on the various segments. Needless to say, a lovely disaster.
@gloriouscow
Is there an uncompressed version of this file you'd be willing to share? It really is beautiful and I'm wondering how it would look printed out and framed. -
I'm incredibly pleased to announce that the microcode for the Intel 80386 has been decoded.
It was an group effort by a bunch of talented people to extract and correct the physical bits, but the major work of decoding them was done by reenigne - you may know him from such incredible PC demos as 8088 MPH and Area 5150, as well as being the person who decoded the 8088 microcode previously.
Please, check out his writeup.
#retrocomputing #vintagecomputing #microcode #reverseengineering
Here's a little bit of banana for scale to appreciate how tiny the features we're working with are.
I have this acrylic keychain that has an actual 386 die in it.
It's Today's Choice, you see. (The rear side has a 486 die, with "Tomorrows Vision" labelled above it, something that I will never get tired of reading. Oh my god, I'm so old.)
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Here's a little bit of banana for scale to appreciate how tiny the features we're working with are.
I have this acrylic keychain that has an actual 386 die in it.
It's Today's Choice, you see. (The rear side has a 486 die, with "Tomorrows Vision" labelled above it, something that I will never get tired of reading. Oh my god, I'm so old.)
See the tiny little darker-color square on the lower left? That's the microcode array, all 94,720 bits of it.
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@gloriouscow
Is there an uncompressed version of this file you'd be willing to share? It really is beautiful and I'm wondering how it would look printed out and framed.@bitcrush_io Sadly I don't. I was rapidly filling up my hard drive with hundreds of very large images being generated from the over 50 different python scripts I wrote over the course of bit extraction and the original full resolution version got accidentally deleted in a clean-up
I likely have the original script that made it, and I might be able to reproduce it if I can determine the original parameters that I used, but it will take some fiddling. I was running scripts on some post-processed versions of the input image as well so there's really no telling if I'll find the right combination. Bummer.
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I'm incredibly pleased to announce that the microcode for the Intel 80386 has been decoded.
It was an group effort by a bunch of talented people to extract and correct the physical bits, but the major work of decoding them was done by reenigne - you may know him from such incredible PC demos as 8088 MPH and Area 5150, as well as being the person who decoded the 8088 microcode previously.
Please, check out his writeup.
#retrocomputing #vintagecomputing #microcode #reverseengineering
@gloriouscow@oldbytes.space how long until the 486? that's the one i am most interested in
(only half joking...) -
@bitcrush_io Sadly I don't. I was rapidly filling up my hard drive with hundreds of very large images being generated from the over 50 different python scripts I wrote over the course of bit extraction and the original full resolution version got accidentally deleted in a clean-up
I likely have the original script that made it, and I might be able to reproduce it if I can determine the original parameters that I used, but it will take some fiddling. I was running scripts on some post-processed versions of the input image as well so there's really no telling if I'll find the right combination. Bummer.
@gloriouscow
Totally understandable, and certainly no need to do all that on my account. If you did find the script, I imagine there's all kinds of variations on this idea that would look fantastic without needing to recreate this image exactly. -
@gloriouscow
Totally understandable, and certainly no need to do all that on my account. If you did find the script, I imagine there's all kinds of variations on this idea that would look fantastic without needing to recreate this image exactly.@bitcrush_io That is true. I think a version without the black might look better.
I think the complete lack of intention behind it is something magical though.
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I'm incredibly pleased to announce that the microcode for the Intel 80386 has been decoded.
It was an group effort by a bunch of talented people to extract and correct the physical bits, but the major work of decoding them was done by reenigne - you may know him from such incredible PC demos as 8088 MPH and Area 5150, as well as being the person who decoded the 8088 microcode previously.
Please, check out his writeup.
#retrocomputing #vintagecomputing #microcode #reverseengineering
Goddamn incredible
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Here's a little bit of banana for scale to appreciate how tiny the features we're working with are.
I have this acrylic keychain that has an actual 386 die in it.
It's Today's Choice, you see. (The rear side has a 486 die, with "Tomorrows Vision" labelled above it, something that I will never get tired of reading. Oh my god, I'm so old.)
@gloriouscow I have to assume those dies must have failed QA because otherwise those must have been really expensive keychains.
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@gloriouscow I have to assume those dies must have failed QA because otherwise those must have been really expensive keychains.
@whimsy I would assume so.
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I'm incredibly pleased to announce that the microcode for the Intel 80386 has been decoded.
It was an group effort by a bunch of talented people to extract and correct the physical bits, but the major work of decoding them was done by reenigne - you may know him from such incredible PC demos as 8088 MPH and Area 5150, as well as being the person who decoded the 8088 microcode previously.
Please, check out his writeup.
#retrocomputing #vintagecomputing #microcode #reverseengineering
@gloriouscow I just wanna say as an Old Skool nerd, this is absolutely amazing. As John and Hank Green would say, this is definitely committing to the bit. Bravo!
