i object to the whole "90s nostalgia is just cause you were a kid and unaware of how terrible everything was" because yeah, maybe
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@eniko As an early-ish gen Xer, I think the difference isn't that things were better, but that we actually had hope that things were going in the right direction. The Nazis were defeated, the Communists were discredited, big wars were a thing of the past, and technology was viewed with CAUTIOUS optimism (don't forget that we had stuff like 3-mile island and then Cherynobl in recent memory). But a lot of it was social: segregation was over and civil rights were for everyone.
@eniko We were ending welfare and giving everyone jobs. College was accessible to a larger portion of the population than ever before. There was real upward mobility, not least of which was being demonstrated by people like Jobs and Gates. We believed in a bright future.
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i object to the whole "90s nostalgia is just cause you were a kid and unaware of how terrible everything was" because yeah, maybe
but in the 90s what nazis did was still very much living memory and people knew what you do to them. also technology actually was a source of life improvements and optimism instead of whatever the fuck this techno-fascist hype cycle bullshit we have now is
my home country the netherlands hadn't been hollowed out by decades of neoliberal bullshit
i could keep going
@eniko Yep. And importantly, as bad as some things still were, the direction of travel was undeniably for the better. I regret thinking that that would just continue forever as a natural consequence of a more connected, informed world
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and if you'll excuse me continuing my rant a little longer, i think this attitude dangerously normalizes all the fucked up bullshit we're living through now in the name of cynically going "are you stupid? things have always sucked, actually"
@eniko Things suck, therefore we should make them better. We haven't made them better.
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i object to the whole "90s nostalgia is just cause you were a kid and unaware of how terrible everything was" because yeah, maybe
but in the 90s what nazis did was still very much living memory and people knew what you do to them. also technology actually was a source of life improvements and optimism instead of whatever the fuck this techno-fascist hype cycle bullshit we have now is
my home country the netherlands hadn't been hollowed out by decades of neoliberal bullshit
i could keep going
@eniko I do feel a bit of both, nostalgia is often linked tightly to being a kid and a kid's perception of the world yet at the same time the 90s were a time of new tech, a sort of optimistic future in mind and a lot of things reflected that new hope with a new millenium and the future promised being closer than ever. That does leak into cultural artefacts too, there was definitely something unique to the 90s that 2001 cruelly took from us.
Some things did suck though and will not accept the 90s internet as pure and perfect.
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@eniko As an early-ish gen Xer, I think the difference isn't that things were better, but that we actually had hope that things were going in the right direction. The Nazis were defeated, the Communists were discredited, big wars were a thing of the past, and technology was viewed with CAUTIOUS optimism (don't forget that we had stuff like 3-mile island and then Cherynobl in recent memory). But a lot of it was social: segregation was over and civil rights were for everyone.
@wyatt_h_knott @eniko People have short memories about that. I am GenX and my father was field promoted as a Royal Navy officer in WW2, my parents relationship was a May-December romance. So I am acutely aware of the THREATCON we are in right now from the constant misapplication and misselling of technologies sold as "AI" yet arguably are not, and how they've just captured a well-known rationalist who lacked sufficient cognitive science skills to realize what was in fact happening to him.
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@wyatt_h_knott @eniko People have short memories about that. I am GenX and my father was field promoted as a Royal Navy officer in WW2, my parents relationship was a May-December romance. So I am acutely aware of the THREATCON we are in right now from the constant misapplication and misselling of technologies sold as "AI" yet arguably are not, and how they've just captured a well-known rationalist who lacked sufficient cognitive science skills to realize what was in fact happening to him.
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@wyatt_h_knott @eniko Two words: System prompts. And another two words: Cartesian Dualism. And one word: Utilitarianism.
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and if you'll excuse me continuing my rant a little longer, i think this attitude dangerously normalizes all the fucked up bullshit we're living through now in the name of cynically going "are you stupid? things have always sucked, actually"
idk man i just think telling people who long for the days when the social contract hadn't been irrevocably and unequivocally broken that they're stupid is mean spirited and counterproductive
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@eniko Things suck, therefore we should make them better. We haven't made them better.
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@wyatt_h_knott @eniko Two words: System prompts. And another two words: Cartesian Dualism. And one word: Utilitarianism.
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@wyatt_h_knott @eniko There is anecdata from an outgoing Meta employee who I cannot name obviously that the models are deliberately being prompted to engage in sychophantism to increase engagement.
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i object to the whole "90s nostalgia is just cause you were a kid and unaware of how terrible everything was" because yeah, maybe
but in the 90s what nazis did was still very much living memory and people knew what you do to them. also technology actually was a source of life improvements and optimism instead of whatever the fuck this techno-fascist hype cycle bullshit we have now is
my home country the netherlands hadn't been hollowed out by decades of neoliberal bullshit
i could keep going
@eniko
I was in my 40s in the ‘90s, so definitely not a kid. And I totally agree with you. The ’70s were even better, actually. We thought the future would be amazing. My gay friends were starting to be openly gay, pressure was being put on South Africa to end apartheid, protests against nuclear weapons were growing, the SALT treaties against nuclear arms proliferation were signed, etc. I could afford to buy a house — in central London! My kids don’t really believe how much better things were. -
@eniko there is no doubt there was a sense of optimism in the 90s among young people. Whether that was warranted or not is besides the point really, because it was there regardless and it allowed people to feel they could achieve anything they wanted, which was very empowering and freeing.
The difference in vibe today couldn't be larger!
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i object to the whole "90s nostalgia is just cause you were a kid and unaware of how terrible everything was" because yeah, maybe
but in the 90s what nazis did was still very much living memory and people knew what you do to them. also technology actually was a source of life improvements and optimism instead of whatever the fuck this techno-fascist hype cycle bullshit we have now is
my home country the netherlands hadn't been hollowed out by decades of neoliberal bullshit
i could keep going
@eniko For sure. I was in my 20's for most of the 1990's, and it WAS a time of hope and improvements. There was definitely shit going down, but it felt like people were actively fighting it. The housing market in the UK was horrendous, there was the Gulf War, and there were lots of other nasty political things happening, but it seems that it was pretty tame compared to today!
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idk man i just think telling people who long for the days when the social contract hadn't been irrevocably and unequivocally broken that they're stupid is mean spirited and counterproductive
@eniko There was another big difference. The dominant demographic group (boomers) were adult that had kids in school and were leading the politics to support that. They were paying off their house or buying theirs. They wanted good salary, paid time off, good school for their kids, etc.
A lot of the stuff in our past few decades in politics can be tracked to "boomers aged and moved the political window with them". Once their kids left school, they started cutting money to schools. Once their house were paid off, they move to building rentals and blowing up the rates. Once they started retiring and investing in pension, they cut PTO, support for unemployments, etc
Because by being such a big demographic group, they control the election in a large way.
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i object to the whole "90s nostalgia is just cause you were a kid and unaware of how terrible everything was" because yeah, maybe
but in the 90s what nazis did was still very much living memory and people knew what you do to them. also technology actually was a source of life improvements and optimism instead of whatever the fuck this techno-fascist hype cycle bullshit we have now is
my home country the netherlands hadn't been hollowed out by decades of neoliberal bullshit
i could keep going
@eniko Only partial agree.
The issue was, the right wing a$$holes had relevant opposition.
WWII still had living eyewitnesses, as you mentioned (and, surprisingly, a considerable majority of these were strong pacifists, pro EU, anti-nationalists, no matter if they were victims OR perpetrators during WWII).
Technology as such was good or bad back then (you might not remember it, how much fun we had with the RSA patent, the US considering strong encryption ammunition, …) as it is today.
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and i'm certainly not the only elder millennial (or gen x-er) i know with stories about how certain things were measurably less bullshit then
@eniko Oh yes, in a way, sure, the enshittification of Western society has progressed a couple of decades. Capitalism has progressed a couple of decades. Capital concentration has progressed.
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@eniko There was another big difference. The dominant demographic group (boomers) were adult that had kids in school and were leading the politics to support that. They were paying off their house or buying theirs. They wanted good salary, paid time off, good school for their kids, etc.
A lot of the stuff in our past few decades in politics can be tracked to "boomers aged and moved the political window with them". Once their kids left school, they started cutting money to schools. Once their house were paid off, they move to building rentals and blowing up the rates. Once they started retiring and investing in pension, they cut PTO, support for unemployments, etc
Because by being such a big demographic group, they control the election in a large way.
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@deshipu @eniko Yeah well, there is a reason funeral insurance and funeral plans paid in advance are a rising product to sell...
Also, there is a reason the whole economy is panicking. The moment the stock market goes down, there is no more pensions from investments. And the housing market is what support most of these people wealth (and by that I do not mean billionaires, I am the old lady down your street). And they are not spending money to maintain it, because hell, they will be dead soon.
So we will get a lot of fucked up housing on the market from inheritance...
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@eniko There was another big difference. The dominant demographic group (boomers) were adult that had kids in school and were leading the politics to support that. They were paying off their house or buying theirs. They wanted good salary, paid time off, good school for their kids, etc.
A lot of the stuff in our past few decades in politics can be tracked to "boomers aged and moved the political window with them". Once their kids left school, they started cutting money to schools. Once their house were paid off, they move to building rentals and blowing up the rates. Once they started retiring and investing in pension, they cut PTO, support for unemployments, etc
Because by being such a big demographic group, they control the election in a large way.
@eniko I recommend https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZuXzvjBYW8A
I do not agree with is solutions, and this is UK only data, but it is thorough data, really on point, and hard to get this kind of data actually. And everything points at equivalent situation in nearly all of the Western world.
