(1/5) I want to share a personal story today.
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@TheOneDoc
So do I!
But three out of 14 is still better than just one. At least we're not alone in this, is what I'm trying to say.@r_alb @TheOneDoc 3/14 roughly matches my intuitive-heuristic expectation for the ratio of people who want to learn, in any class. Most just want to pass in the most efficient way.
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E em0nm4stodon@infosec.exchange shared this topic
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(5/5) But at least we stood firm on our principles and managed to defend another aspect of our lives against being encroached on by slop machines.
On a more personal level, it really meant the world to me that my colleagues obviously weren’t opting for the „easy“ way, as everyone else did, but instead had made the ethical choice together with me. Not being alone in this situation really felt so good, and I realize how much I needed this tiny act of joint defiance right now. -
@r_alb this story made my head spin.
I have so many questions, starting from how it is posssible that they actually encourage students/demand of them using llm in research at this particular course of studies.
Maybe the lecturer wanted to show the students how this thing hallucinates and how to deal with that? I.e. never trust what it gives you? I can't see any other reason.
Anyway, congrats! You stood up for yourself and two other people in the room.
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@noodlemaz @barabasz @r_alb
I think it’s all down to the way education is seen: it’s not a means to grow minds and think, it’s a process to be completed so that the student can move through the education system and emerge as functioning droids.
This has always been the goal under capitalism - to make more workers but it used to be that capitalism also required workers who could do analysis and make improvements. That role has been assigned to genAI. -
(1/5) I want to share a personal story today. This will be a thread, so please bear with me.
I’m pursuing a master’s degree in digital society alongside my work. Yesterday, I started to attend a course on research methods in the social sciences. The lecturer told us that our assignment would be to perform a research task using a slop machine.
I protested, of course, making my case why I considered using slop machines in research and educational highly unethical. (...)@r_alb as a lecturer who also teaches research methods and refuses any kind of llm, I'm so glad to read this! thanks for sharing!
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@r_alb as a lecturer who also teaches research methods and refuses any kind of llm, I'm so glad to read this! thanks for sharing!
@tizlit
Thank you for doing it! I hope you're not the only one at your workplace! -
@noodlemaz @barabasz @r_alb
I think it’s all down to the way education is seen: it’s not a means to grow minds and think, it’s a process to be completed so that the student can move through the education system and emerge as functioning droids.
This has always been the goal under capitalism - to make more workers but it used to be that capitalism also required workers who could do analysis and make improvements. That role has been assigned to genAI.@OneInterestingFact
Sad but true! -
@noodlemaz
In my opinion, the issue is that the ethical implications of using slop machines in education (or for any other purpose) are usually ignored. I get why teachers feel pressure to somehow include those models into their classes. But those decisions should be made based on the whole picture - including ethics - and not just because the LLM bros keep telling us that everyone who's not using their products will be at an disadvantage soon (which is obviously a marketing lie). -
(5/5) But at least we stood firm on our principles and managed to defend another aspect of our lives against being encroached on by slop machines.
On a more personal level, it really meant the world to me that my colleagues obviously weren’t opting for the „easy“ way, as everyone else did, but instead had made the ethical choice together with me. Not being alone in this situation really felt so good, and I realize how much I needed this tiny act of joint defiance right now.@r_alb Your characterization of (I presume) AI as "slop machines" makes it look like no useful work can be done with it. My experience tells me otherwise
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@Em0nM4stodon
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@noodlemaz
In my opinion, the issue is that the ethical implications of using slop machines in education (or for any other purpose) are usually ignored. I get why teachers feel pressure to somehow include those models into their classes. But those decisions should be made based on the whole picture - including ethics - and not just because the LLM bros keep telling us that everyone who's not using their products will be at an disadvantage soon (which is obviously a marketing lie).@r_alb @barabasz I know it's a lie, but practically, if you put yourself in their position
Overworked, underpaid and under resourced
Faced with shitty parents and belligerent students oftentimes
And a thing that most people are using for whatever reason
And pressure from your bosses to get on board probablyWhile you and I can, for now, keep refusing - do they have much of a choice? Or does it make them safer to incorporate things somehow. I agree use is unethical. But a lot of people just aren't able to make a stand about that, and I think that's true of a lot of teachers. They'll get back submissions with unknown AI use and input instead of in their case knowing who's used it.
It's not the best example I've seen of using it to teach people - teach them it's not really doing what they need or how bad it is is ideal - but I still can't put the blame on teachers. They're making do, as they have been for so long. Maybe that's over-charitable for all of them, but worth considering.
I still think it's important to bring up! People who do want to refuse need to know they're not alone.
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@r_alb @barabasz I know it's a lie, but practically, if you put yourself in their position
Overworked, underpaid and under resourced
Faced with shitty parents and belligerent students oftentimes
And a thing that most people are using for whatever reason
And pressure from your bosses to get on board probablyWhile you and I can, for now, keep refusing - do they have much of a choice? Or does it make them safer to incorporate things somehow. I agree use is unethical. But a lot of people just aren't able to make a stand about that, and I think that's true of a lot of teachers. They'll get back submissions with unknown AI use and input instead of in their case knowing who's used it.
It's not the best example I've seen of using it to teach people - teach them it's not really doing what they need or how bad it is is ideal - but I still can't put the blame on teachers. They're making do, as they have been for so long. Maybe that's over-charitable for all of them, but worth considering.
I still think it's important to bring up! People who do want to refuse need to know they're not alone.
Thank you for sharing teachers' perspective! You're right, of course, and it certainly wasn't my intention to lay all the blame on teachers. They are in the same situation as all of us, having those models thrown at them on every occasion. Plus, they have to think about what's good for those they're teaching.
I know exactly whom I want and have to blame for the mess we're in. -
@r_alb Your characterization of (I presume) AI as "slop machines" makes it look like no useful work can be done with it. My experience tells me otherwise
@xpmatteo
If 'it can do useful stuff' is your only defence of and reason for slop machines, I must say you're in the wrong thread here.
We're not LLM bros. Whether something gets done or not isn't my only measure. I deeply care about how it is done!
I also don't care about whether technology could do something. I care about whether something should be done with technology! -
@xpmatteo
If 'it can do useful stuff' is your only defence of and reason for slop machines, I must say you're in the wrong thread here.
We're not LLM bros. Whether something gets done or not isn't my only measure. I deeply care about how it is done!
I also don't care about whether technology could do something. I care about whether something should be done with technology! -
@tizlit
Thank you for doing it! I hope you're not the only one at your workplace!@r_alb hard to say! I think a lot of lecturers use llms but don't admit to it. I know of only one who definitely doesn't use it
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(5/5) But at least we stood firm on our principles and managed to defend another aspect of our lives against being encroached on by slop machines.
On a more personal level, it really meant the world to me that my colleagues obviously weren’t opting for the „easy“ way, as everyone else did, but instead had made the ethical choice together with me. Not being alone in this situation really felt so good, and I realize how much I needed this tiny act of joint defiance right now.@r_alb Kind of the same way I feel when hearing one of my colleagues, with zero prompting from me & not particularly addressed at me either, express her consternation that unwrapping incoming slop emails etc. is taking an increasing amount of time away doing from her actual job & she would like some kind of policy on this. It's from the opposite side, of course, but just seeing someone arrive at a critical view on their own, through everyday work experience, gives me a tiny jolt of hope.
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@r_alb Kind of the same way I feel when hearing one of my colleagues, with zero prompting from me & not particularly addressed at me either, express her consternation that unwrapping incoming slop emails etc. is taking an increasing amount of time away doing from her actual job & she would like some kind of policy on this. It's from the opposite side, of course, but just seeing someone arrive at a critical view on their own, through everyday work experience, gives me a tiny jolt of hope.
@jwcph
Thank you! I think it's so important to share those experiences to remind each other that there are others who either are already or are increasingly becoming critical of the slop industry. -
@annehargreaves @r_alb @xpmatteo
this! Btw another/constructivistic step is being able to teach it to someone else. (a socalled learning by teaching).
One premise is you understood your research and your findings to switch from the role of an researcher doing a paper to an actual educator. While you both prepare for it and do your teaching you are still dive deeper into the topic.
(it's one of the principles in my job, btw.)
Good luck and success with your project/research. -
@annehargreaves @r_alb @xpmatteo
this! Btw another/constructivistic step is being able to teach it to someone else. (a socalled learning by teaching).
One premise is you understood your research and your findings to switch from the role of an researcher doing a paper to an actual educator. While you both prepare for it and do your teaching you are still dive deeper into the topic. (it's one of the principles in my job, btw.)
Good luck and success with your project/research.@annehargreaves @r_alb @xpmatteo
oh, almost forgot. You did also something more than just standing up for your values, btw. You eventually/probably/hopefully will make people think.
That's important. They do now have to reflect their own point of view. Some will brush it off, but some will start to think about it (again). It's already more any LLM is able to produce for them.
In the end that's what "real" education is all about. Not what mark you have on your paper but what you have really learned from it.
My hopes are your prof/teacher/tutor, (and I'm certain if he/she's a good one he or she, also will reflect on this episode. Again it should be part of the professional DNA being a good teacher.
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@jwcph
Thank you! I think it's so important to share those experiences to remind each other that there are others who either are already or are increasingly becoming critical of the slop industry.@r_alb @jwcph during learning using slop machines decreases the learning. The problem a teacher faces is, that it's hard to exclude, because, how can you tell?
I pity the people that have to learn stuff nowadays, and have to put their research in words that can in principle be output by slop machines - 'cause how can the teacher do a fair grading then, that really reflects what was learned?
