How would the world be different today if the US had stayed out of the Vietnam War?
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@futurebird @roknrol THey killed Kennedy over Cuba and communism, then Johnson became President, and still believed in the power of the American military. He wanted to go in, get rid of the communists, and start a development program to damn the me kong river and turn it into a powerhouse like the TVA - American companies pushed for the war. "Domino Theory" was really a cover for corporate colonialism.
But if communism is so bad it will just fail on its own. Just stand back and watch while you keep trading and making money.
This only makes sense if we talk about power rather than ideology. Who gets to have power...
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But if communism is so bad it will just fail on its own. Just stand back and watch while you keep trading and making money.
This only makes sense if we talk about power rather than ideology. Who gets to have power...
@futurebird @roknrol Yep, and at the time, they were looking at what they thought was a multi-polar world, with a VERY SUCCESSFUL Soviet Union to compete against - it wasn't the Chinese we were worried about so much as the Soviets. They still believed in the centrality of European economies to world order, were afraid of more Russian expansion to the west after Poland etc and wished to fight "somewhere else" that wasn't so close to home. So, Vietnam.
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@futurebird @roknrol Yep, and at the time, they were looking at what they thought was a multi-polar world, with a VERY SUCCESSFUL Soviet Union to compete against - it wasn't the Chinese we were worried about so much as the Soviets. They still believed in the centrality of European economies to world order, were afraid of more Russian expansion to the west after Poland etc and wished to fight "somewhere else" that wasn't so close to home. So, Vietnam.
@futurebird @roknrol Don't forget, the Soviets were busy invading Europe, being first into space, and were providing weapons all over the world. They were an actually scary threat to American capitalists.
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@futurebird @roknrol Curricula love to leave out the part where the US had nuclear missiles in Turkey
@vikxin
i noticed it in my history book and i brougjt it up and was told something to the effect of that its not applicable. i dont exactly remember since its nearing a decade since i heard it but the impression was that i were to drop it.
@futurebird @roknrol -
@futurebird @roknrol Don't forget, the Soviets were busy invading Europe, being first into space, and were providing weapons all over the world. They were an actually scary threat to American capitalists.
@futurebird @roknrol And an important part of the answer to "why Vietnam" is that the US and Russia were still figuring out how to have wars in what everyone had predicted was a "post-war" age after WW2 - we had nuked Japan, Europe had needed to be rebuilt, entire states had been created, and were now being absorbed by an expanding Communist Empire, but we could not conflict directly with the USSR. So we invented the idea of the Proxy War, which is what Vietnam really was.
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Yeah, I hated history class because it made no damn sense. Learning as an adult I now find it really interesting. Because the events of the past do make sense, it's just US history as taught in school leaves so much out, contains so many white lies that it's hard to even follow.
@futurebird @roknrol I can relate to that.
For people who like (historic) novels, I can totally recommend the Century Trilogy by Ken Follett.
Century Trilogy Reading Order: Complete Guide (2026)
Complete reading order for Ken Follett's Century Trilogy. 3 epic books spanning WWI to the Cold War across 5 families, 1911-1989. Start here.
Historical Shelf (historicalshelf.com)
It's really a lot to read, I listened to the audio books which are a bit more than 100 hours in total.
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What does a typical US high school education teach about this war?
"The US went to Vietnam to save people from Communism, but it got messy and maybe it wasn't worth it."
That's about it. This must be... not even close to the whole story.
A lot of people including a significant chunk of American soldiers died in this war. When it started the US public supported it. By the time it ended most people didn't, though feelings are "complex."
@futurebird my history classes usually stopped right after WWII. We were out of time somehow. Never got taught even Korean War, certainly not Vietnam. I always wondered why, figured it was less settled and living people still had big feelings and opinions, but felt even as a teen that we were missing out.
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@futurebird @roknrol Curricula love to leave out the part where the US had nuclear missiles in Turkey
I was so annoyed by this and shocked that I found my HS history book (bought a copy on ebay) and looked it up. Because, I thought, there is no way that it wasn't mentioned at least... you know maybe they played it down, right?
NOPE.
There were only two paragraphs on the Cuban Missile crisis and they omitted the initial US aggression entirely.
This makes it impossible to understand the event. Turns the story into nonsense.
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@futurebird @roknrol I can relate to that.
For people who like (historic) novels, I can totally recommend the Century Trilogy by Ken Follett.
Century Trilogy Reading Order: Complete Guide (2026)
Complete reading order for Ken Follett's Century Trilogy. 3 epic books spanning WWI to the Cold War across 5 families, 1911-1989. Start here.
Historical Shelf (historicalshelf.com)
It's really a lot to read, I listened to the audio books which are a bit more than 100 hours in total.
@radieschen I haven't read that one but it feels similar to Pillars of the Earth, his other multi-generational history, which was excellent.
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@futurebird David Halberstam, "The Best and the Brightest".
[edit to add]
He is not at all an unbiased writer, but his bias is that of a journalist who did his best to report the war. He definitely has opinions.@futurebird - FWIW, if you want to see how he covers a war he didn't professionally report, "The Coldest Winter" is on part of the Korean War. It's a slice, though. Not as widescale as Brightest.
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@futurebird my history classes usually stopped right after WWII. We were out of time somehow. Never got taught even Korean War, certainly not Vietnam. I always wondered why, figured it was less settled and living people still had big feelings and opinions, but felt even as a teen that we were missing out.
"Don't worry about the recent history that has shaped the world you live in, nothing important has happened in the last 50 years."
I didn't buy that line either. Come on man.
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How would the world be different today if the US had stayed out of the Vietnam War?
I know very little about this war and wouldn't mind maybe reading a book about it. But I don't know where to start. I'd love something that added context without pushing a political agenda. So I don't want an anti-communist book, or really even an explicitly ani-capitalist one. I'd like to think I could understand the power vectors and their impact on ordinary people. This is hard to do!
@futurebird I hate to recommend it as a place "to start," but Halberstam's 'Best and the Brightest' is a grand summer read and gives a pretty worthy multi-angle view of the question "what was that about?"
If you want to ease into it and actually enjoy the process, might I suggest the novel "The Quiet American"? (fair warning: it is emotionally demanding)
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@vikxin
i noticed it in my history book and i brougjt it up and was told something to the effect of that its not applicable. i dont exactly remember since its nearing a decade since i heard it but the impression was that i were to drop it.
@futurebird @roknrol@vikxin
but yeah even though the book.mentioned it, it was as an annal after the meat of the story saying the us agreed to withdraw from turkey.
@roknrol
@futurebird -
I was so annoyed by this and shocked that I found my HS history book (bought a copy on ebay) and looked it up. Because, I thought, there is no way that it wasn't mentioned at least... you know maybe they played it down, right?
NOPE.
There were only two paragraphs on the Cuban Missile crisis and they omitted the initial US aggression entirely.
This makes it impossible to understand the event. Turns the story into nonsense.
When the book came in the mail I took it out of the box and was stunned by how small it was in my hands. This was my middle school "US History" book. But I had smaller hands when I studied it. I thought I was so sophisticated putting post-it notes and little pencil underlining on the key sections.
I knew I was having trouble in history and really wanted to be a better student.
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When the book came in the mail I took it out of the box and was stunned by how small it was in my hands. This was my middle school "US History" book. But I had smaller hands when I studied it. I thought I was so sophisticated putting post-it notes and little pencil underlining on the key sections.
I knew I was having trouble in history and really wanted to be a better student.
I remembered the book as something substantial and imposing. So heavy I hated when I had to carry it in my bag. Intimidating because it was the "Honors" history book and it had words like "hegemony" in it that I had to look up.
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How would the world be different today if the US had stayed out of the Vietnam War?
I know very little about this war and wouldn't mind maybe reading a book about it. But I don't know where to start. I'd love something that added context without pushing a political agenda. So I don't want an anti-communist book, or really even an explicitly ani-capitalist one. I'd like to think I could understand the power vectors and their impact on ordinary people. This is hard to do!
How about David Halberstam's 1972 book about the origins of the war, "The Best and the Brightest"?
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"Don't worry about the recent history that has shaped the world you live in, nothing important has happened in the last 50 years."
I didn't buy that line either. Come on man.
@futurebird yeah! Then why does even talking about it make my uncles and grandpa make faces and start pontificating? Clearly something’s up and I’d rather know what it is then stumble into an argument!
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I won't call the book "trash" ... most of what was in it was true. However, it just didn't contain very much.
This was a "progressive" US history from the 80s. I went to a very liberal school. We even read a few chapters from Howard Zinn once. But even so there were many things obscured and omitted.
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@futurebird yeah! Then why does even talking about it make my uncles and grandpa make faces and start pontificating? Clearly something’s up and I’d rather know what it is then stumble into an argument!
If we ever get out of this ugly little era we can't pretend that it didn't happen. There is a lesson here.
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When the book came in the mail I took it out of the box and was stunned by how small it was in my hands. This was my middle school "US History" book. But I had smaller hands when I studied it. I thought I was so sophisticated putting post-it notes and little pencil underlining on the key sections.
I knew I was having trouble in history and really wanted to be a better student.
World History
Year 0: Jesus is born.
Year 1492: America is "discovered", to the great surprise of the people living there.
Year 1776: Jesus signs the Declaration of Independence, which also declares all people to be free (people meaning white men who are not Irish).
Year 1941: The USA starts killing Nazis. One of the first occassions where other nations agree that the USA killing people is a good idea.
Year 1993: The average american has Internet now (average american meaning upper middle class white men).
...
To be fair, most history is "we kill people because we are better"...
