when commenting on companies like Apple or core open source technologies SystemD it seems I have two options, either get lumped in with the shills or the truthers.
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@glyph lol yeah, people have some very strong opinions about systemd (see also: wayland). unfortunately? most people don't directly interact with these bits of software, which means you get all kinds of pros/cons that aren't particularly grounded
@dotstdy I have not always posted precisely technically correct takes about Wayland either, but like, my technical mistakes are based on incorrect technical reasoning about a specific outcome that I've witnessed, or ignorance of a particular tool or protocol (usually a tool that wasn't documented, or was documented in a bizarre and unfamiliar way, so there's not really a way that I could have known in advance). So I have some patience for errors.
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@dotstdy I have not always posted precisely technically correct takes about Wayland either, but like, my technical mistakes are based on incorrect technical reasoning about a specific outcome that I've witnessed, or ignorance of a particular tool or protocol (usually a tool that wasn't documented, or was documented in a bizarre and unfamiliar way, so there's not really a way that I could have known in advance). So I have some patience for errors.
@dotstdy but the people just _making shit up_ about what the software does, how it works, how the releases are managed, what the maintainers are doing, etc, is infuriating. like the systemd thing _is_ bad, but it's not because Poettering is going to get Palantir to rendition you to guantanamo for liking Pop!_OS
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when commenting on companies like Apple or core open source technologies SystemD it seems I have two options, either get lumped in with the shills or the truthers. I really do not like either of these options
@glyph some of that is just out of your control if you are being honest about your opinions, others are just being loud and mugging for the crowd. Being real is cringe sometimes, and thats ok, having real opinions that arent exaggerated like a youtube thumbnail are helpful and interesting to others who are the audience you are trying to reach and converse with. The problem with large social media platforms is that you are in a crowded room with every weisenheimer overhearing and trying to interject, rather than the smaller blog/forums where you have a self-selected group and total control of which "letters to the editor" you choose to publish.
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@dotstdy I have not always posted precisely technically correct takes about Wayland either, but like, my technical mistakes are based on incorrect technical reasoning about a specific outcome that I've witnessed, or ignorance of a particular tool or protocol (usually a tool that wasn't documented, or was documented in a bizarre and unfamiliar way, so there's not really a way that I could have known in advance). So I have some patience for errors.
@glyph I wouldn't really mind errors if they weren't repeated by people who should know better... I think that's the worst part, people stretching the truth in some kind of bizzaro culture war, and then it gets repeated ad infinitum. And yeah the completely cooked conspiracy theories (often helped along by the YouTube contingent)
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I'd really like to reply directly and try to engage in discussions but *everyone* doing this is way too angry and dysregulated to respond to personal feedback, and half the time I will see six pages of Leftist Theory buzzwords thrown into a blender, click through to the bio to see where they're coming from, and see "20 y/o comp sci student" and like, I hate age verification too but I feel like we all might have been better off if we couldn't post until we could rent a car
@glyph
Yes, unfortunately. Anybody doing the topic-equivalent of spelling "Microsoft" with dollar signs is not reasonably worth engaging with, for your own peace of mind.Which is a shame since I was certainly leaning in that rhetorical direction as a 20-something student and really benefitted from older people patiently explaining the value of nuance to me.
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@dotstdy but the people just _making shit up_ about what the software does, how it works, how the releases are managed, what the maintainers are doing, etc, is infuriating. like the systemd thing _is_ bad, but it's not because Poettering is going to get Palantir to rendition you to guantanamo for liking Pop!_OS
@glyph ascribe not to a us government backed covert operation what can adequately explained by a mediocre engineering culture in a large corporate company.
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when commenting on companies like Apple or core open source technologies SystemD it seems I have two options, either get lumped in with the shills or the truthers. I really do not like either of these options
@glyph I have to say, systemd and X11 threads are never discussions anymore, just rants. It's so tiring.
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it is tooth-shatteringly frustrating to watch page after page of rant thread from dozens of different accounts scroll by (for my sins, I follow several hashtags around my interests, so it's not necessarily people I follow) where they have identified real problems but have zero understanding of how corporations or large open source projects are organized or make decisions, and invent fantastical conspiracies. it's 4chan shit. please stop
@glyph What’s an example conspiracy? (If it’s not too painful to recount)
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@glyph some of that is just out of your control if you are being honest about your opinions, others are just being loud and mugging for the crowd. Being real is cringe sometimes, and thats ok, having real opinions that arent exaggerated like a youtube thumbnail are helpful and interesting to others who are the audience you are trying to reach and converse with. The problem with large social media platforms is that you are in a crowded room with every weisenheimer overhearing and trying to interject, rather than the smaller blog/forums where you have a self-selected group and total control of which "letters to the editor" you choose to publish.
@raven667 all stuff I know but it is, unironically, useful to have it reinforced and read back to me; thanks
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@glyph What’s an example conspiracy? (If it’s not too painful to recount)
@hpincket birthDate in systemd is the thin end of the wedge for “them” to get the operating system to report your social security number and your fingerprints to upload to the global database. the macbook neo is just the first step to making C compilers illegal because “they” want us to be unthinking consumer sheep
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@hpincket birthDate in systemd is the thin end of the wedge for “them” to get the operating system to report your social security number and your fingerprints to upload to the global database. the macbook neo is just the first step to making C compilers illegal because “they” want us to be unthinking consumer sheep
@hpincket the promulgators of these conspiracy theories know not to actually say “they” or “the jews” or “the muslim anarchist communist deep state” or whatever the fuck, but they all gesture vaguely at the ur-malevolent collective will that all conspiracy fabulism relies upon
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@hpincket the promulgators of these conspiracy theories know not to actually say “they” or “the jews” or “the muslim anarchist communist deep state” or whatever the fuck, but they all gesture vaguely at the ur-malevolent collective will that all conspiracy fabulism relies upon
@hpincket and to be clear: the people posting these threads probably, for the most part, do not *realize* that they are passive-voicing themselves right past centuries-old antisemitic tropes; it’s so vague and nebulous that they don’t even realize that their arguments *do* require a rhetorical “they” with a coherent and nefarious agenda. if you unfocus your eyes and take in the vibes it *feels* like a systemic critique, about, like, capital, or hegemony or something
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@hpincket and to be clear: the people posting these threads probably, for the most part, do not *realize* that they are passive-voicing themselves right past centuries-old antisemitic tropes; it’s so vague and nebulous that they don’t even realize that their arguments *do* require a rhetorical “they” with a coherent and nefarious agenda. if you unfocus your eyes and take in the vibes it *feels* like a systemic critique, about, like, capital, or hegemony or something
@glyph Thank you. I admit I am prone to conspiracy but always get stuck on the mechanism. If you take a beat to ask “who/how exactly?”, you realize what’s required is even more outlandish/unlikely.
I found some articles on birthDate, and the “who” would seem to be Meta (and lawmakers who were convinced age verification would solve problems). Not sure what conversations people imagine behind Meta’s closed doors.
I haven’t found any information on the C compiler Macbook Neo conspiracy though.
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@hpincket the main point is that the imagination is necessary. if some grim conspiracy at Meta were revealed, I wouldn’t be *too* surprised, but I would need to see evidence for it! the truthers would reply “yes but haven’t you seen what they’ve already done in Myanmar” and yes I have, but that’s the point: we know about that stuff because of evidence. it was specific actions taken by specific people not just general malevolence vibes from which we can infer all evil we might imagine
@hpincket re: the neo, it’s rarely stated all at once like that, but as a collage of related ideas: the hardware specs are intentionally bad, you can get better elsewhere for cheaper, with such specs you can only “consume” not “create”, “creation” is often implicitly taken to mean “make native software for the host platform”. all of this is silly and false on its face, but also, it sort of ignores the existence of the iPad and *its* consumption focus
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@glyph Thank you. I admit I am prone to conspiracy but always get stuck on the mechanism. If you take a beat to ask “who/how exactly?”, you realize what’s required is even more outlandish/unlikely.
I found some articles on birthDate, and the “who” would seem to be Meta (and lawmakers who were convinced age verification would solve problems). Not sure what conversations people imagine behind Meta’s closed doors.
I haven’t found any information on the C compiler Macbook Neo conspiracy though.
@hpincket the main point is that the imagination is necessary. if some grim conspiracy at Meta were revealed, I wouldn’t be *too* surprised, but I would need to see evidence for it! the truthers would reply “yes but haven’t you seen what they’ve already done in Myanmar” and yes I have, but that’s the point: we know about that stuff because of evidence. it was specific actions taken by specific people not just general malevolence vibes from which we can infer all evil we might imagine
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I'd really like to reply directly and try to engage in discussions but *everyone* doing this is way too angry and dysregulated to respond to personal feedback, and half the time I will see six pages of Leftist Theory buzzwords thrown into a blender, click through to the bio to see where they're coming from, and see "20 y/o comp sci student" and like, I hate age verification too but I feel like we all might have been better off if we couldn't post until we could rent a car
@glyph wow, no offense Glyph, but this sounds like something a /sheeple/ would write!!! /s
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@glyph wow, no offense Glyph, but this sounds like something a /sheeple/ would write!!! /s
@glyph anyway yea I literally just muted a couple of these accounts the other day. Wish these folks could direct their anger at someone who deserves it instead of venting their spleens all over the rest of us
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@hpincket the promulgators of these conspiracy theories know not to actually say “they” or “the jews” or “the muslim anarchist communist deep state” or whatever the fuck, but they all gesture vaguely at the ur-malevolent collective will that all conspiracy fabulism relies upon
@glyph To be 'fair', they did single out that one systemd contributor. They named and shamed him, mobbed him by posting his employer and location etc.
I asked someone why they're doing this and they flat out denied that they did so — even though the post was right in their timeline. Bizarre.
I've been unfollowing a bunch of people lately. They're not all teenagers either.
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@glyph anyway yea I literally just muted a couple of these accounts the other day. Wish these folks could direct their anger at someone who deserves it instead of venting their spleens all over the rest of us
@bitprophet the sad reality of all this is that those to blame are largely beyond our reach, and it is precisely because that is a hard reality to accept, that folks lash out against those closer to their own sphere of influence
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M mttaggart@infosec.exchange shared this topic
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@hpincket birthDate in systemd is the thin end of the wedge for “them” to get the operating system to report your social security number and your fingerprints to upload to the global database. the macbook neo is just the first step to making C compilers illegal because “they” want us to be unthinking consumer sheep
