With the news of the secret $100 million investment in Bluesky by Bain, I keep thinking about protocols.
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@_elena @jaredwhite To be fair, it is possible to host all of the ATProto infrastructure for much cheaper with the same trade-offs as with a fediverse server, where you get an incomplete view of the network.
Stefan Bohacek (@stefan@stefanbohacek.online)
Arguing whether Bluesky is "really" decentralized is increasingly becoming a moot point. "full-network atproto relay on a $4.20/mo VPS" https://bsky.app/profile/bad-example.com/post/3mfkrfvy3ok2u Running a PDS on a Raspberry Pi. https://justingarrison.com/blog/2024-12-02-run-a-bluesky-pds-from-home/ "A Bluesky appview focused on low resource consumption" https://github.com/alnkesq/AppViewLite "full-scale indie atproto relay [...] $30 CAD/mo" https://bsky.app/profile/bad-example.com/post/3lne2wvr5hc2b #bluesky #fediverse
Stefan's Personal Mastodon Server (stefanbohacek.online)
@_elena @jaredwhite That is, with one exception.
Apparently the built-in DMs are stored off-protocol on Bluesky's servers. So, yeah.
(But they are apparently working on that.)
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With the news of the secret $100 million investment in Bluesky by Bain, I keep thinking about protocols.
Maybe the perceived "drawbacks" of #ActivityPub are ultimately strengths?
#ATproto handles identity in a way that allows a single sign-in across apps. But wouldn't this make it easier to profile you? Is this why crypto VCs are so attracted to it?
And ATproto has funding in the 100s of millions by VCs but at some point they'll want to turn a profit. There is ZERO pressure here to ensh*tt*fy
@_elena Interesting point!
Personally, PDSes are one thing I really like about the Atmosphere/ATProto. Being able to log into multiple apps without needing to manage multiple accounts is pretty convenient, and enables more developer experimentation.
Here, you either create a new fediverse platform, meaning you need to create a new account, or maybe a Mastodon browser plugin or web app, because not many want to put in the effort to support all the different APIs.
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@django @_elena mastodon doesn't do anything to protect your data from being slurped by anyone who might want it, so I find that argument a bit hard to believe. The sort of integration that has been enabled by seperating identity, data hosting and relay/search indexing makes the type of hodgepodge interoperability we have today in the fediverse look pretty unusable. I say this as someone who has been pushing for the fediverse for over a decade and who thinks VCs should be chased with pitchforks
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With the news of the secret $100 million investment in Bluesky by Bain, I keep thinking about protocols.
Maybe the perceived "drawbacks" of #ActivityPub are ultimately strengths?
#ATproto handles identity in a way that allows a single sign-in across apps. But wouldn't this make it easier to profile you? Is this why crypto VCs are so attracted to it?
And ATproto has funding in the 100s of millions by VCs but at some point they'll want to turn a profit. There is ZERO pressure here to ensh*tt*fy
I'm not too much of a fan of having to make an account on every service, when the promise of activitypub is being able to view youtube posts from twitter, it's annoying to have accounts on both a youtube and twitter to get a proper experience.
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@_elena Interesting point!
Personally, PDSes are one thing I really like about the Atmosphere/ATProto. Being able to log into multiple apps without needing to manage multiple accounts is pretty convenient, and enables more developer experimentation.
Here, you either create a new fediverse platform, meaning you need to create a new account, or maybe a Mastodon browser plugin or web app, because not many want to put in the effort to support all the different APIs.
@_elena Also, have you read this?
An interview with @thisismisse…
An interview with @thisismissem@hachyderm.io from @APC@mastodon.social: [*FediMod FIRES on building better and decentralised social media applications*][1] (by @XavCC@todon.eu). > Probably the biggest thing that I’ve learned over the years of the Fediverse is that it depends almost entirely on volunteer labour. There are a few people that are paid full time to work on the Fediverse. But to actually get the things that you need, it very much largely depends on volunteer labour, because projects are either chasing funding through grants or they're chasing funding through their nations. And those demands can often be at odds with what people overall need or want. > > So that's probably the biggest learning from the Fediverse that I have: a lot of it is just run and funded by individuals and volunteers, which often means that it doesn't move as fast as more commercial operations. [1]: https://www.apc.org/en/news/fedimod-fires-building-better-and-decentralised-social-media-applications
(hollo.social)
Definitely not trying to say that the fediverse should in any way accept VC money. But we do need to figure out sustainable ways to fund all the work that's needed to be done.
Remember this, by the way?
Support Mastodon this Giving Tuesday!
Support Mastodon's Giving Tuesday campaign to fund a Trust & Safety Lead, ensuring a safe, inclusive, and thriving community. Donate today to make a difference!
Mastodon Inc (givebutter.com)
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@everton137 @mackuba Yeah, lots of folks are talking about how to migrate to a third-party PDS host, which is all fine and dandy but I'd still be reliant on Bluesky's infrastructure even if my own personal data is hosted elsewhere…which to me is not very compelling. I'm an all or nothing sorta guy…either I trust Bluesky enough that they can host all my stuff, or…I don’t trust them at all.
Yes, just to add, PDS is the easy part.
Here's a better way to view the network.
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Yes, just to add, PDS is the easy part.
Here's a better way to view the network.
@stefan @everton137 That's a neat visualization, thanks.
Still want to reiterate that the PDS concept just doesn't interest me. It's like if you could move the 0s & 1s data storage of your emails & personal contacts off of Google hosting…yet still use Gmail and all of its UI & services thereof.
Why?
The reason I use Fastmail is because I want nothing at all to do with Google / Gmail.
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@django @_elena mastodon doesn't do anything to protect your data from being slurped by anyone who might want it, so I find that argument a bit hard to believe. The sort of integration that has been enabled by seperating identity, data hosting and relay/search indexing makes the type of hodgepodge interoperability we have today in the fediverse look pretty unusable. I say this as someone who has been pushing for the fediverse for over a decade and who thinks VCs should be chased with pitchforks
@liaizon protocol wise there is authenticated Fetch, otherwise slurping might be individual server admin concerns (not saying they should be, but it requires other tools to the stack).
I think the point @_elena was pointing to is that this hodgepodge, Unusable Fediverse probably provides more friction to slurping than the structured nature of ATP. -
@stefan @everton137 That's a neat visualization, thanks.
Still want to reiterate that the PDS concept just doesn't interest me. It's like if you could move the 0s & 1s data storage of your emails & personal contacts off of Google hosting…yet still use Gmail and all of its UI & services thereof.
Why?
The reason I use Fastmail is because I want nothing at all to do with Google / Gmail.
Yeah, definitely agree. Even if you host your own PDS, you have to have a lot of trust in people running each additional element of the ATProto stack.
I just don't, and that's in part not being too familiar with that community, but also, I'm getting strong "former NFT/web3 and/or former/current AI booster" vibes from some of the people.
Worth adding that there's a client that skips some of Bluesky's own infrastructure and connects directly to people's PDSes.
(But relies on some community tools, so back to the question of trust.)
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@liaizon protocol wise there is authenticated Fetch, otherwise slurping might be individual server admin concerns (not saying they should be, but it requires other tools to the stack).
I think the point @_elena was pointing to is that this hodgepodge, Unusable Fediverse probably provides more friction to slurping than the structured nature of ATP. -
@_elena I keep asking for this "decentralized" protocol to help me move off of all infrastructure controlled by the Bluesky corporation, and I keep getting the answer "well…so…uh…actually…"
Unfortunately I'm not waiting around for the "exit from evil billionaire control" scenario Jay Graber talked about a year ago or whatever, because that's already happened. So if I can't use ATProto without Bluesky, I guess I won't use ATProto.
️@_elena@mastodon.social @jaredwhite@indieweb.social
If you self host your pds and use https://reddwarf.app you don't depend on any of bluesky's servers.
There's also wafrn, which has atproto support and activitypub support.
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With the news of the secret $100 million investment in Bluesky by Bain, I keep thinking about protocols.
Maybe the perceived "drawbacks" of #ActivityPub are ultimately strengths?
#ATproto handles identity in a way that allows a single sign-in across apps. But wouldn't this make it easier to profile you? Is this why crypto VCs are so attracted to it?
And ATproto has funding in the 100s of millions by VCs but at some point they'll want to turn a profit. There is ZERO pressure here to ensh*tt*fy
Well if this means I finally stop seeing posts from discount twitter
(which is basically what it is I mean why do people even use it?)
on my feed
That would be nice -
@stefan @everton137 That's a neat visualization, thanks.
Still want to reiterate that the PDS concept just doesn't interest me. It's like if you could move the 0s & 1s data storage of your emails & personal contacts off of Google hosting…yet still use Gmail and all of its UI & services thereof.
Why?
The reason I use Fastmail is because I want nothing at all to do with Google / Gmail.
@jaredwhite
I actually disagree, I think it'd be neat if ActivityPub had some form of PDS-like structuremove all of your emails & personal contacts off of Google hosting...yet still use Gmail
What if you take all your emails and contacts and move to something not dependent on Gmail? You no longer have the costs of leaving a Google service, because all your data is controlled by you.
Not a great comparison to the current AtProto ecosystem which is very dependent on Bluesky. But, I think the PDS itself is not to blame there.
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@jaredwhite totally. BTW did you get an answer to your question yesterday?
I also wonder if there are ATProto equivalents to Phanpy or masto-fe... you know, web clients that allow you to log in with your credentials instead of going to bsky.app
Yes, there are lots of different web and mobile clients. I use blacksky.community, which also has its own appview, so am almost completely independent of Bluesky infrastructure. @stefan mentioned Red Dwarf, and I think there are a handful of others that also allow you to select an appview (very analagous to how phanpy lets you choose an instance) so also allow almost complete independence.
In terms of your initial question, I think that many people (including me!) find a multiple-identity approach very valuable for a variety of reasons. That said, today's ActivityPub-based software doesn't handle multiple identities any better than ATProto-based software. So like so many other things with fedi, it's a potential strength that hasn't been leveraged.
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With the news of the secret $100 million investment in Bluesky by Bain, I keep thinking about protocols.
Maybe the perceived "drawbacks" of #ActivityPub are ultimately strengths?
#ATproto handles identity in a way that allows a single sign-in across apps. But wouldn't this make it easier to profile you? Is this why crypto VCs are so attracted to it?
And ATproto has funding in the 100s of millions by VCs but at some point they'll want to turn a profit. There is ZERO pressure here to ensh*tt*fy
@_elena@mastodon.social thanks for bringing this up! It was an elephant in the room also when I read the initial specs of ATProto: a cryptographically signed identity that you carry with you across systems may sound like the perfect engineering solution compared to AP, but it's also like leaving your fingerprints wherever you go and having very little control over who can see them.
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With the news of the secret $100 million investment in Bluesky by Bain, I keep thinking about protocols.
Maybe the perceived "drawbacks" of #ActivityPub are ultimately strengths?
#ATproto handles identity in a way that allows a single sign-in across apps. But wouldn't this make it easier to profile you? Is this why crypto VCs are so attracted to it?
And ATproto has funding in the 100s of millions by VCs but at some point they'll want to turn a profit. There is ZERO pressure here to ensh*tt*fy
Same with matrix and xmpp.... Xmpp seems less attractive to this kind of enshitification, while matrix already have a lot of interest by companies, gov and other funds. Xmpp keeps community backed and driven for 27 years 🥳
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@_elena Well…I would say it's "complicated".
I could envision a world where every major country or socioeconomic region has its own ATProto-based social network, because they have the resources to run that kind of infrastructure at scale. Not saying I like the idea, but that seems to be how ATProto was structured. Several *large enterprises* could run services which interoperate.
That's quite different from ActivityPub where you can run a decent social networking instance off a Raspberry Pi.
You can run some of the ATProto infrastructure on a Raspberry Pi as well, with some of the same trade-offs we have here, like not having the full network view.
Stefan Bohacek (@stefan@stefanbohacek.online)
Arguing whether Bluesky is "really" decentralized is increasingly becoming a moot point. "full-network atproto relay on a $4.20/mo VPS" https://bsky.app/profile/bad-example.com/post/3mfkrfvy3ok2u Running a PDS on a Raspberry Pi. https://justingarrison.com/blog/2024-12-02-run-a-bluesky-pds-from-home/ "A Bluesky appview focused on low resource consumption" https://github.com/alnkesq/AppViewLite "full-scale indie atproto relay [...] $30 CAD/mo" https://bsky.app/profile/bad-example.com/post/3lne2wvr5hc2b #bluesky #fediverse
Stefan's Personal Mastodon Server (stefanbohacek.online)
Not really trying to advocate for the Atmosphere here, mind you, but there is quite a lot of momentum over there.
And there is definitely progress, even if it's slow. A bit like here.
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You can run some of the ATProto infrastructure on a Raspberry Pi as well, with some of the same trade-offs we have here, like not having the full network view.
Stefan Bohacek (@stefan@stefanbohacek.online)
Arguing whether Bluesky is "really" decentralized is increasingly becoming a moot point. "full-network atproto relay on a $4.20/mo VPS" https://bsky.app/profile/bad-example.com/post/3mfkrfvy3ok2u Running a PDS on a Raspberry Pi. https://justingarrison.com/blog/2024-12-02-run-a-bluesky-pds-from-home/ "A Bluesky appview focused on low resource consumption" https://github.com/alnkesq/AppViewLite "full-scale indie atproto relay [...] $30 CAD/mo" https://bsky.app/profile/bad-example.com/post/3lne2wvr5hc2b #bluesky #fediverse
Stefan's Personal Mastodon Server (stefanbohacek.online)
Not really trying to advocate for the Atmosphere here, mind you, but there is quite a lot of momentum over there.
And there is definitely progress, even if it's slow. A bit like here.
@stefan @jaredwhite @_elena I've lost perspective on how open the ATProto ecosystem is (and can be) but people I respect are involved and have positive things to say about it. And it seems to have good momentum right now. In my view, having two good ecosystem options (ATProto and ActivityPub) benefits everyone. Better two than zero.
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@stefan @jaredwhite @_elena I've lost perspective on how open the ATProto ecosystem is (and can be) but people I respect are involved and have positive things to say about it. And it seems to have good momentum right now. In my view, having two good ecosystem options (ATProto and ActivityPub) benefits everyone. Better two than zero.
@coreysnipes I do like that there is interest in implementing some of the better ideas here, things like portable identity, or at least better account migration.
But we all know here there is just not enough funding for all the work that's needed.
Yes, Bluesky/Atmosphere is heavily subsidized right now, but still, there is a ton of momentum and excitement around it.
There are people putting in the effort to make the ecosystem more decentralized, many don't like how much control Bluesky the company has.
And they might just very well succeed.
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@coreysnipes I do like that there is interest in implementing some of the better ideas here, things like portable identity, or at least better account migration.
But we all know here there is just not enough funding for all the work that's needed.
Yes, Bluesky/Atmosphere is heavily subsidized right now, but still, there is a ton of momentum and excitement around it.
There are people putting in the effort to make the ecosystem more decentralized, many don't like how much control Bluesky the company has.
And they might just very well succeed.
@stefan
I still believe at some point in the future both protocols will converge. I imagine adding ActivityPub directly on top of a PDS would be one way (there's been a few experiments with that). I know there's a few AtProto apps that would like to add ActivityPub at the Application level. And it's probably only a matter of time before someone sets up an ActivityPub server that lets you sign in with your PDS, there's a lot of options out there, just have to figure out what works best for people (and figure out how to fund it all)
