so if you want to subscribe to a vpn, and you were considering proton, maybe dont
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@bhhaskin @floriann yes - and having had to partake in some of them, those mechanics are:
- folks here try to figure out who the folks on the other side are they need to get ahold of
- one agency here tries to talk to another agency there
- they basically have to do puppydog eyes and beg
- the other agency can tell them to get fucked if they wantand that entire exchange makes it into the news articles, cuz both agencies get credit
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@bhhaskin @floriann yes - and having had to partake in some of them, those mechanics are:
- folks here try to figure out who the folks on the other side are they need to get ahold of
- one agency here tries to talk to another agency there
- they basically have to do puppydog eyes and beg
- the other agency can tell them to get fucked if they wantand that entire exchange makes it into the news articles, cuz both agencies get credit
@bhhaskin @floriann the best examples of these sorts of things are when american law enforcement goes after csam peddlers in another country. they'll usually mention that it was like, interpol or whoever they worked with, and that'll be clearly written about as such.
but this article only mentions proton, and the fbi
which, again, says they worked directly.
and if thats the caseproton turned over logs without any "legal pressure to". willingly.
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@bhhaskin @floriann the best examples of these sorts of things are when american law enforcement goes after csam peddlers in another country. they'll usually mention that it was like, interpol or whoever they worked with, and that'll be clearly written about as such.
but this article only mentions proton, and the fbi
which, again, says they worked directly.
and if thats the caseproton turned over logs without any "legal pressure to". willingly.
@Viss @floriann hard to say without knowing the details. It could just be a poorly written article, or an article that is trying to push a narrative. (Can't actually read it behind the paywall)
A hypothetical could be that the FBI reached out to visa and asked them to have a business comply or lose access to payment services. Not saying that is what happened, but just that there could be a ton of reasons why it happened.
It wouldn't surprise me in the least if Proton willingly handed over, though. Just pointing out that really in this day and age that is any business.
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@Viss @floriann hard to say without knowing the details. It could just be a poorly written article, or an article that is trying to push a narrative. (Can't actually read it behind the paywall)
A hypothetical could be that the FBI reached out to visa and asked them to have a business comply or lose access to payment services. Not saying that is what happened, but just that there could be a ton of reasons why it happened.
It wouldn't surprise me in the least if Proton willingly handed over, though. Just pointing out that really in this day and age that is any business.
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@floriann and you would go to those lengths to pay them even though they'd turn over your logs still? tsk tsk
@Viss i can't access the article so I don't know to which logs you are referring to.
In general proton has a no logs policy but I guess they might be forced logging access to specific accounts on demand.
To mitigate this they offer Tor access. I personally don't use Proton and I think if some state actor is after you probably can't stay anonymous using convenient services.
I don't trust any VPN providers because it is the best Crypto AG like business appliance I can think of.
It's easy to tell the people to avoid Proton VPN because they might track you down when authorities walk in their offices and pull the business files out of the folders - but I can't think of any VPN this is better protected in that regard.
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@Viss i can't access the article so I don't know to which logs you are referring to.
In general proton has a no logs policy but I guess they might be forced logging access to specific accounts on demand.
To mitigate this they offer Tor access. I personally don't use Proton and I think if some state actor is after you probably can't stay anonymous using convenient services.
I don't trust any VPN providers because it is the best Crypto AG like business appliance I can think of.
It's easy to tell the people to avoid Proton VPN because they might track you down when authorities walk in their offices and pull the business files out of the folders - but I can't think of any VPN this is better protected in that regard.
@floriann they turned over payment and subscriber details, and the person using the email used their personal bank/credit card to pay, and that data exposed their identity.
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@Viss @bhhaskin I don't know if the user was a us citizen and I would like to hope that for an eu citizen it would be any different.
But the problem is that were completely dependent from the us. Let's think of Nicolas Guillou (https://www.heise.de/en/news/How-a-French-judge-was-digitally-cut-off-by-the-USA-11087561.html) and this was just a single pointed act of revenge.
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@Viss @bhhaskin I don't know if the user was a us citizen and I would like to hope that for an eu citizen it would be any different.
But the problem is that were completely dependent from the us. Let's think of Nicolas Guillou (https://www.heise.de/en/news/How-a-French-judge-was-digitally-cut-off-by-the-USA-11087561.html) and this was just a single pointed act of revenge.
@floriann @bhhaskin based on the topic of the article, it would be surprising if the owner of the account was not a us citizen. but yeah, your point still is an important one - if the fbi can 'just get stuff' from switzerland, and the guy in charge is... ugh. ... just fucking look at him
then yeah, its a problem for literally everyone
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@floriann they turned over payment and subscriber details, and the person using the email used their personal bank/credit card to pay, and that data exposed their identity.
Mystified as to why Proton did it. That was a major business-limiting action. Really dumb. Kompromat maybe? Truckload of money? Been on the wrong side for years but let it slip this time?
Whatever the reason, it's useful to know that they're worse than the obvious ones like Google and MS--because Proton lies about their standards and practices.
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Mystified as to why Proton did it. That was a major business-limiting action. Really dumb. Kompromat maybe? Truckload of money? Been on the wrong side for years but let it slip this time?
Whatever the reason, it's useful to know that they're worse than the obvious ones like Google and MS--because Proton lies about their standards and practices.
@jakebrake @floriann so turns out theres this MLAT thing between the us and switzerland, and the fbi was able to get swiss authorities to pressure proton into turning over subscriber data
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@jakebrake @floriann so turns out theres this MLAT thing between the us and switzerland, and the fbi was able to get swiss authorities to pressure proton into turning over subscriber data
@Viss @jakebrake @floriann I've got to say "not complying with legal instructions in your own jurisdiction" seems like an even worse business-limiting decision.
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so if you want to subscribe to a vpn, and you were considering proton, maybe dont
Joseph Cox (@josephcox@infosec.exchange)
New from 404 Media: Proton Mail, the privacy-focused email service, gave authorities data that let the FBI unmask an anonymous 'Stop Cop City' protester. It was payment data linked to the anonymous email account. From that, FBI ID'd them, then tracked their movements https://www.404media.co/proton-mail-helped-fbi-unmask-anonymous-stop-cop-city-protestor/
Infosec Exchange (infosec.exchange)
@Viss I'm more inclined to recommend people not to pay for 404 Media. That headline is not only horribly inflammatory and biased - it's flat out wrong.
Proton followed what's stated in their ToS by complying with Swiss law. All companies, everywhere, do.
If you need anonymity and not just privacy, account holders should use the options provided for that OPSEC. Proton has such as well.
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R relay@relay.infosec.exchange shared this topic
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@bhhaskin @floriann the best examples of these sorts of things are when american law enforcement goes after csam peddlers in another country. they'll usually mention that it was like, interpol or whoever they worked with, and that'll be clearly written about as such.
but this article only mentions proton, and the fbi
which, again, says they worked directly.
and if thats the caseproton turned over logs without any "legal pressure to". willingly.
@Viss @bhhaskin @floriann "subscriber information received from the Swiss Mutual Legal Assistance Treaty Unit" - so the FBI basically asked the Swiss police, that got the data and forwarded it back under the umbrella of a long standing treaty between the countries/authrities. This should not be surprising at all btw, but somehow for many VPN customers it is. -
@krypt3ia yeah but then theres the lavabit way. just dont log. or log in such a short timeframe that the bureaucracy makes it impossible to get shit done in time
@Viss that won't prevent your datacenter operator from turning over your payment information.
Some people never miss a chance to get mad at Proton for doing the exact thing Proton say they'd do in this situation, which is also the exact same thing any other lawful provider would do under the same circumstances.
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@Viss I'm more inclined to recommend people not to pay for 404 Media. That headline is not only horribly inflammatory and biased - it's flat out wrong.
Proton followed what's stated in their ToS by complying with Swiss law. All companies, everywhere, do.
If you need anonymity and not just privacy, account holders should use the options provided for that OPSEC. Proton has such as well.
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@Viss @bhhaskin @floriann "subscriber information received from the Swiss Mutual Legal Assistance Treaty Unit" - so the FBI basically asked the Swiss police, that got the data and forwarded it back under the umbrella of a long standing treaty between the countries/authrities. This should not be surprising at all btw, but somehow for many VPN customers it is.
@buherator @floriann @Viss @bhhaskin mull *cough* vad
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I think all of this stems from the "Proton helped FBI" headline. They didn't. "Switzerland helped the USA" wouldn't get as many reactions.
There's OPSEC failure here, but trying to pin this on Proton is to look in the wrong place. It would not be any different were it any other privacy focused provider.
