Can the AI haters give it a rest already?
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@quanin I would modify from that assessment to specify AI in its current implementation and, rather than stop using, I would say don't use or use as little as possible. Rather than saying the benefits to you don't matter, I would say the benefits are outweighed by the costs, both to you personally and to society. Otherwise, I would say that's pretty accurate.
@JustinMac84 "stop using" and "don't use" are basically the same thing, Justin. What you're saying is escentially, if you haven't started, don't, and if you have, stop. If you use AI, then those concerns are not a priority. That is an absolutist position, and that's what turns people off.
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@quanin I would modify from that assessment to specify AI in its current implementation and, rather than stop using, I would say don't use or use as little as possible. Rather than saying the benefits to you don't matter, I would say the benefits are outweighed by the costs, both to you personally and to society. Otherwise, I would say that's pretty accurate.
@quanin I would also amplify that position to say that the jaenie is out of the bottle now. We're stuck with it. Personally, I wish we weren't, but, since we are, I would argue it's our responsibility, both individually at the user level and societally, to use it in as ethical, considerate and environmentally friendly way as possible.
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@JustinMac84 "stop using" and "don't use" are basically the same thing, Justin. What you're saying is escentially, if you haven't started, don't, and if you have, stop. If you use AI, then those concerns are not a priority. That is an absolutist position, and that's what turns people off.
@quanin The crucial difference I was trying to get across is that, if you have to use it, use it as little as possible. To me that is different from don't use, at all,ever. It acknowledges that there may be a need for use, but that it would be in everyone's interests, except perhaps the people pushing the tech, if that use was heavily moderated. Perhaps it is an absolutist, or virtually absolutist position. I'm not seeing a practicable 3rd way atm.
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@JustinMac84 "stop using" and "don't use" are basically the same thing, Justin. What you're saying is escentially, if you haven't started, don't, and if you have, stop. If you use AI, then those concerns are not a priority. That is an absolutist position, and that's what turns people off.
@quanin With all the info I have that I have alluded to here, knowing that the same companies pushing AI have deliberately and knowingly made all the rest of their stuff addictive and they don't want AI regulated at all, hence Meta's spending 65 mil to endorse AI-friendly politicians, to me, saying a little AI is fine, is like saying you'll be fine if you only do smack occasionally. To be clear, I neither like nor want to have that view and would love to be wrong.
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@quanin With all the info I have that I have alluded to here, knowing that the same companies pushing AI have deliberately and knowingly made all the rest of their stuff addictive and they don't want AI regulated at all, hence Meta's spending 65 mil to endorse AI-friendly politicians, to me, saying a little AI is fine, is like saying you'll be fine if you only do smack occasionally. To be clear, I neither like nor want to have that view and would love to be wrong.
@JustinMac84 Do we know that, though? Or are we just telling ourselves that? https://www.techdirt.com/2026/01/29/the-social-media-addiction-narrative-may-be-more-harmful-than-social-media-itself/
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@JustinMac84 Do we know that, though? Or are we just telling ourselves that? https://www.techdirt.com/2026/01/29/the-social-media-addiction-narrative-may-be-more-harmful-than-social-media-itself/
@quanin Execs have gone on record to say that they know they're making stuff addictive. One such was quoted in "Screen Time Stand-off" a book I am currently reading. Internal Ticktock memos were cited in the recent case against them by the US wanting to shut them down.
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@quanin With all the info I have that I have alluded to here, knowing that the same companies pushing AI have deliberately and knowingly made all the rest of their stuff addictive and they don't want AI regulated at all, hence Meta's spending 65 mil to endorse AI-friendly politicians, to me, saying a little AI is fine, is like saying you'll be fine if you only do smack occasionally. To be clear, I neither like nor want to have that view and would love to be wrong.
@quanin Which brings me back to my OP in this thread suggesting that a more constructive way forward might be to allay the substantial concerns so that a non absolutist position might emerge, rather than suggest that those considerably alarmed with multiple, independent good reasons to be so just pipe down and let everyone else get on with it. If it is possible, I am eager to be shown what I'm missing, if not, I see no other alternative than that I'm right.
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@quanin Which brings me back to my OP in this thread suggesting that a more constructive way forward might be to allay the substantial concerns so that a non absolutist position might emerge, rather than suggest that those considerably alarmed with multiple, independent good reasons to be so just pipe down and let everyone else get on with it. If it is possible, I am eager to be shown what I'm missing, if not, I see no other alternative than that I'm right.
@JustinMac84 You realize the US only wanted to shut TikTok down because they wouldn't sell to Oracle, right? IT's why they no longer want to shut TikTok down. Did you happen to read what I linked you to? Because even the experts can't agree social media is addictive. What's happening is we've trained ourselves to see things that way, so they are. 2% of adult social media users actually display the signs of addiction, but 18% will say they think they're addicted. Tell yourself something often enough it'll become true.
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@JustinMac84 Do we know that, though? Or are we just telling ourselves that? https://www.techdirt.com/2026/01/29/the-social-media-addiction-narrative-may-be-more-harmful-than-social-media-itself/
@quanin That! Was an interesting article and thanks for sharing. My response would be that a both and approach would seem most appropriate, i.e. tech giants should be restricted in making habit-forming apps and should be punshed for having done so, but we should use language around those who have fallen pray to that deliberate, bad faith practice, that doesn't disempower them. This should have the most positive impact.
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@quanin That! Was an interesting article and thanks for sharing. My response would be that a both and approach would seem most appropriate, i.e. tech giants should be restricted in making habit-forming apps and should be punshed for having done so, but we should use language around those who have fallen pray to that deliberate, bad faith practice, that doesn't disempower them. This should have the most positive impact.
@quanin Still catching up. the biggest problem I had with the article was that it equates addiction with powerlessness. Tain's necessarily so. Addicts overcome addictions all the time. Second issue I had was: the reference to chemical addiction. Something doesn't have to be heroine-style chemically addictive to be addictive. Psychological addiction, without a chemical basis, is well-documented, and doesn't have to imply powerlessness.
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@JustinMac84 You realize the US only wanted to shut TikTok down because they wouldn't sell to Oracle, right? IT's why they no longer want to shut TikTok down. Did you happen to read what I linked you to? Because even the experts can't agree social media is addictive. What's happening is we've trained ourselves to see things that way, so they are. 2% of adult social media users actually display the signs of addiction, but 18% will say they think they're addicted. Tell yourself something often enough it'll become true.
@quanin Caught up now with this post. Yes I know the motivation behind that case, but that doesn't mean the internal memos cited don't exist. If a company is trying to develop a platform that will be so habit-forming as to discourage physical movement, my best memory of the quote from the memo I heard on NPR's Up First, how else can you describe that big tech behaviour other than misanthropic and counter to users' interests and health.
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@quanin That! Was an interesting article and thanks for sharing. My response would be that a both and approach would seem most appropriate, i.e. tech giants should be restricted in making habit-forming apps and should be punshed for having done so, but we should use language around those who have fallen pray to that deliberate, bad faith practice, that doesn't disempower them. This should have the most positive impact.
@JustinMac84 You can't regulate psychology, though. Everything can be habit-forming if you let it. The important question is why are these people leaning so hard into social media? And like I said, the answer could be as simple as they're getting something from social media that we're not getting from the people around us. As for the article, it's not the author trying to link addiction to powerlessness. It's the people pushing the social media addiction angle doing that. The same people who blame the social media for the addiction are the same people who blamed drugs before that. You might also be interested in: https://www.techdirt.com/2024/06/07/schools-social-media-ban-backfires-jeopardizing-student-privacy/
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@JustinMac84 You realize the US only wanted to shut TikTok down because they wouldn't sell to Oracle, right? IT's why they no longer want to shut TikTok down. Did you happen to read what I linked you to? Because even the experts can't agree social media is addictive. What's happening is we've trained ourselves to see things that way, so they are. 2% of adult social media users actually display the signs of addiction, but 18% will say they think they're addicted. Tell yourself something often enough it'll become true.
@quanin Still processing the article, but a brief summary of my ramblings is why not simultaneously punish the companies, i.e. the trial is right, and empower the users, i.e. change the language and advanced coping strategies offered to users?
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@quanin Caught up now with this post. Yes I know the motivation behind that case, but that doesn't mean the internal memos cited don't exist. If a company is trying to develop a platform that will be so habit-forming as to discourage physical movement, my best memory of the quote from the memo I heard on NPR's Up First, how else can you describe that big tech behaviour other than misanthropic and counter to users' interests and health.
@JustinMac84 Okay, so maybe that's why TikTok built its app. And if that's true, then TikTok and its executives belong in jail. But that's not why every social media company built theier app. You're ascribing an admission by one platform to all of them. That's absolutist, and wanting to set fire to the forest because of one tree.
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@JustinMac84 Okay, so maybe that's why TikTok built its app. And if that's true, then TikTok and its executives belong in jail. But that's not why every social media company built theier app. You're ascribing an admission by one platform to all of them. That's absolutist, and wanting to set fire to the forest because of one tree.
@quanin Facebook execs have admitted the same in the book I cited. I've seen posts by x-google employees saying they've made their apps addictive. I have, myself, fallen pray to obviously bad faith architecture in Alexa games and have seen other people do the same. Obviously some of the onus is on users, both to behave safely and not be disempowered by those around them, but I would say a greater onus is for devs not to willfully exploit vulnerability.
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@quanin Still processing the article, but a brief summary of my ramblings is why not simultaneously punish the companies, i.e. the trial is right, and empower the users, i.e. change the language and advanced coping strategies offered to users?
@JustinMac84 Because we don't know the trial is right. We do know that TikTok settled, but that tells us only about how TikTok sees its chances. A big problem with this whole situation is social media addiction isn't clinically recognized. So we don't even know by what standard people are being called addicted. You and I on this platform right now, are we addicted? I don't think so, but someone else might.
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@JustinMac84 Okay, so maybe that's why TikTok built its app. And if that's true, then TikTok and its executives belong in jail. But that's not why every social media company built theier app. You're ascribing an admission by one platform to all of them. That's absolutist, and wanting to set fire to the forest because of one tree.
@quanin empower the user, censure the predator. These things are not mutually exclusive and we should be putting all our effort behind both.
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@JustinMac84 And I return to the original point of the thread. If we refused to use every device that was to our benefit because we had concerns, we'd get absolutely nowhere. People have concerns about video games. Should we stop using those, or should we address and/or disprove those concerns? People have concerns about microwaves. Should we stop using those? People have concerns about wifi. Should we stop using that? The list, she goes on.
@quanin @JustinMac84 Oh cuh riste. And heeeeeere we goooooo! Because, you know, the whole reason I use AI to, you know, read things? Is because the people around me do a shitty job of it. And I don't want people, you know, reading my mail. So, like, what do I do then? Make the government hire a special helpyperson to come do it for me? '
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@quanin empower the user, censure the predator. These things are not mutually exclusive and we should be putting all our effort behind both.
@JustinMac84 We're not talking about drug dealers, here. No one's being prayed on. And I'm going to ask again, what is social media giving these people that society isn't? When you're trying to escape something, anything can be seen as addictive. video games, social media, antisocial behaviour... pick one. If a 16-year-old can't talk about their anxiety issue to mom and dad, they're still gonna talk about it. But it's gonna be on Facebook. You may not agree, but then, it's on you to do better.
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@JustinMac84 Because we don't know the trial is right. We do know that TikTok settled, but that tells us only about how TikTok sees its chances. A big problem with this whole situation is social media addiction isn't clinically recognized. So we don't even know by what standard people are being called addicted. You and I on this platform right now, are we addicted? I don't think so, but someone else might.
@quanin To me, if execs knew that what they were putting out was likely to cause harm as the memos and statements indicate, if they knew and intended that their apps should have such a pull as to make it difficult for people to pull away from to do other essential activities, that's culpability, that's reprehensible and should be stopped. Will juries and lawyers agree? Time will tell, but that's my take on it.
