"Heathcliff is described as a “cruel, hard landlord to his tenants” by villagers in the novel.
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@lilithsaintcrow I'm not sure how all these people read the book (or see the movie? IDK) and conclude, "This is a movie about a really great guy."
@guyjantic @lilithsaintcrow [Looks at 'Breaking Bad' and 'the Sopranos'] There are some people* who seem to confuse being the protagonist with being a good guy. I personally blame, first, conventional USAmerican 'Hollywood code' narratives that seeded Manichean perceptions of characters in fiction, and then cynical, Randian, bad faith pushes to confuse independence and self-reliance with being an arsehole.
*Morons
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@guyjantic @lilithsaintcrow [Looks at 'Breaking Bad' and 'the Sopranos'] There are some people* who seem to confuse being the protagonist with being a good guy. I personally blame, first, conventional USAmerican 'Hollywood code' narratives that seeded Manichean perceptions of characters in fiction, and then cynical, Randian, bad faith pushes to confuse independence and self-reliance with being an arsehole.
*Morons
@Illuminatus That's a really good observation—mistaking the protagonist for a good guy. I've never been able to articulate it, so thank you! @guyjantic
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@Illuminatus That's a really good observation—mistaking the protagonist for a good guy. I've never been able to articulate it, so thank you! @guyjantic
@lilithsaintcrow @Illuminatus @guyjantic I think maybe 50-75% of readers uncritically assume a first-person viewpoint, or a third-person sympathetically portrayed protagonist, must be "good". It takes a deliberate authorial move to break them out of interpreting the story through that lens. (And if you do it, you'll lose a bunch of them because they go into must-throw-book-at-wall mode over the cognitive dissonance.)
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@lilithsaintcrow @Illuminatus @guyjantic I think maybe 50-75% of readers uncritically assume a first-person viewpoint, or a third-person sympathetically portrayed protagonist, must be "good". It takes a deliberate authorial move to break them out of interpreting the story through that lens. (And if you do it, you'll lose a bunch of them because they go into must-throw-book-at-wall mode over the cognitive dissonance.)
@cstross @Illuminatus @guyjantic That could be. It's so alien to the way I personally read; I don't have to *like* a protagonist to feel for them. It would be interesting to see the statistics in that area, if one could trust self-reporting.
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@lilithsaintcrow @Illuminatus @guyjantic I think maybe 50-75% of readers uncritically assume a first-person viewpoint, or a third-person sympathetically portrayed protagonist, must be "good". It takes a deliberate authorial move to break them out of interpreting the story through that lens. (And if you do it, you'll lose a bunch of them because they go into must-throw-book-at-wall mode over the cognitive dissonance.)
@cstross @lilithsaintcrow @Illuminatus @guyjantic I think what makes shows like Breaking Bad better Call Saul so compelling is that they play with our notions of good and bad and what those terms even mean, especially in the context of the systems in which they operate and are entangled.
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@cstross @lilithsaintcrow @Illuminatus @guyjantic I think what makes shows like Breaking Bad better Call Saul so compelling is that they play with our notions of good and bad and what those terms even mean, especially in the context of the systems in which they operate and are entangled.
@cstross @lilithsaintcrow @Illuminatus @guyjantic Walter White does not become Heisenberg on his own. He becomes Heisenberg in a system that hasn't rewarded him for a lifetime of public service and in which his cancer diagnosis isn't just a death sentence for him but promises ruin on his family and diminished prospects for his soon-to-be adult disabled son.
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@cstross @Illuminatus @guyjantic That could be. It's so alien to the way I personally read; I don't have to *like* a protagonist to feel for them. It would be interesting to see the statistics in that area, if one could trust self-reporting.
@lilithsaintcrow @Illuminatus @guyjantic I think we underestimate the number of profoundly naive readers out there (who are just reading novels as bland escapism). I mean, you've read Starter Pack. Are Jum and Tabitha plausibly sympathetic protagonists? (Especially T, with her Chicago House of Horror thing going on?)
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@cstross @lilithsaintcrow @Illuminatus @guyjantic Walter White does not become Heisenberg on his own. He becomes Heisenberg in a system that hasn't rewarded him for a lifetime of public service and in which his cancer diagnosis isn't just a death sentence for him but promises ruin on his family and diminished prospects for his soon-to-be adult disabled son.
@Infoseepage @lilithsaintcrow @Illuminatus @guyjantic Is this a TV reference? (I don't watch TV.)
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@cstross @lilithsaintcrow @Illuminatus @guyjantic Walter White does not become Heisenberg on his own. He becomes Heisenberg in a system that hasn't rewarded him for a lifetime of public service and in which his cancer diagnosis isn't just a death sentence for him but promises ruin on his family and diminished prospects for his soon-to-be adult disabled son.
@cstross @lilithsaintcrow @Illuminatus @guyjantic As I've seen posted repeatedly periodically on the internet, Breaking Bad Canada is a pretty boring and short show because in that version Walter White gets treated for his cancer and doesn't rack up multi-million dollar medical bills.
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@cstross @lilithsaintcrow @Illuminatus @guyjantic As I've seen posted repeatedly periodically on the internet, Breaking Bad Canada is a pretty boring and short show because in that version Walter White gets treated for his cancer and doesn't rack up multi-million dollar medical bills.
@cstross @lilithsaintcrow @Illuminatus @guyjantic In that version, he probably still dies or maybe not but he does so as a beloved father and husband and respected member of the teaching staff of his local high school with a side note in his obituary about his early involvement in a biotech success story.
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@Infoseepage @lilithsaintcrow @Illuminatus @guyjantic Is this a TV reference? (I don't watch TV.)
@cstross @lilithsaintcrow @Illuminatus @guyjantic Even if you're not a fan of television in general, I highly recommend breaking bad and the (imo) superior Better Call Saul and The Wire. They're in my opinion some of the best and most memorable television ever made.
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