Yup.
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@mw @CStamp @mekkaokereke The same thing has been shown to happen with alcohol. As much as 50% of "drunk behavior" happens when you give people quinine and tell them it's vodka. This effect has been shown to be true across cultures, where different cultures have different ideas about what "drunk behavior" is. People act more like a stereotypical drunk for their culture, specifically.
In America, people talk about alcohol reducing inhibitions, but most of the inhibition reduction, specifically, happens when people just think they have alcohol. The alcohol just gives them permission to drop their inhibitions.
This does not mean that alcohol doesn't impact the mind. It does. It just doesn't as much as people think it does, or necessarily in the ways that people think it does, but people behave as if it did.
@Azuaron @mw @CStamp @mekkaokereke as I recall, there's a similar effect with "feeding children sugar makes them hyper", e.g. telling them this is part of it
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@mw @CStamp @mekkaokereke The same thing has been shown to happen with alcohol. As much as 50% of "drunk behavior" happens when you give people quinine and tell them it's vodka. This effect has been shown to be true across cultures, where different cultures have different ideas about what "drunk behavior" is. People act more like a stereotypical drunk for their culture, specifically.
In America, people talk about alcohol reducing inhibitions, but most of the inhibition reduction, specifically, happens when people just think they have alcohol. The alcohol just gives them permission to drop their inhibitions.
This does not mean that alcohol doesn't impact the mind. It does. It just doesn't as much as people think it does, or necessarily in the ways that people think it does, but people behave as if it did.
@Azuaron @mw @CStamp @mekkaokereke see also Jimi Hendrix, who was an incredibly gentle man, but per Wikipedia citation, "turned into a bastard when he drank". Alcohol I would rank in the top 3 most dangerous substances, under meth and opiates, in that specific order. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jimi_Hendrix
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@Azuaron @mw @CStamp @mekkaokereke see also Jimi Hendrix, who was an incredibly gentle man, but per Wikipedia citation, "turned into a bastard when he drank". Alcohol I would rank in the top 3 most dangerous substances, under meth and opiates, in that specific order. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jimi_Hendrix
@codinghorror i think you’re misreading the study referenced above.
Alcohol doesn’t make people into assholes. Assholes use alcohol as an excuse to behave the way they want.
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@mw @CStamp @mekkaokereke The same thing has been shown to happen with alcohol. As much as 50% of "drunk behavior" happens when you give people quinine and tell them it's vodka. This effect has been shown to be true across cultures, where different cultures have different ideas about what "drunk behavior" is. People act more like a stereotypical drunk for their culture, specifically.
In America, people talk about alcohol reducing inhibitions, but most of the inhibition reduction, specifically, happens when people just think they have alcohol. The alcohol just gives them permission to drop their inhibitions.
This does not mean that alcohol doesn't impact the mind. It does. It just doesn't as much as people think it does, or necessarily in the ways that people think it does, but people behave as if it did.
@Azuaron Alcohol affects people very differently. @mw @mekkaokereke
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@Azuaron @mw @CStamp @mekkaokereke see also Jimi Hendrix, who was an incredibly gentle man, but per Wikipedia citation, "turned into a bastard when he drank". Alcohol I would rank in the top 3 most dangerous substances, under meth and opiates, in that specific order. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jimi_Hendrix
@codinghorror Again, different people react differently. I met someone who said he was a mean drunk when he specifically drank tequila. I know someone who turns into a teddy bear when drinking. Some people are boisterous, some introspective. Etc. Some have addictive personalties, some don’t.There are more shared things such as motor skills being affected, so no one should drink and drive. @Azuaron @mw @mekkaokereke
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Yup.
Like I've said: roid rage isn't a real thing. It's not. Anyone that tries to tell you that it is a real thing, is probably trying to justify violence by petulant man-babies.
If you're thinking "But steroids can make you irritable!
" I don't care. All women get irritable. All women know how guns and knives work. But they don't shoot and stab and beat people every time they get irritable. Part of being an adult, is learning how to regulate your emotions. Keep your hands to yourself.Steroids don't make big men angry. Steroids make angry men big. What would've been a 150 lb twerp, is now a 200 lb twerp. Steroids give them the opportunity to try to live out their violence. When I worked as a bouncer in college, I often had to hulk-smash roided out dudes that don't understand that steroids won't help them against me, and that fighting is a skill, and that they didn't have that skill.
I've never taken steroids. I'm an elite level natural powerlifter. Many powerlifters and bodybuilders aren't natural, which means that they do take steroids and other performance enhancing drugs. They don't rage on people.
I don't judge people who take steroids for sports. I certainly don't judge people who do gender affirming care. I am pro-gender affirming care. What I'm against, is violent people that try to blame steroids as their excuse for hurting people that they perceive as smaller than them.
No.
It's not the steroids. It's you.
@mekkaokereke
Tangential to your (accurate) point: Roid-rage is a myth, but "steroid psychosis" is a real and terrifying phenomenon, one that doctors do not routinely alert patients to the risk of. It was scary enough once we understood what was happening, but before then -- brrrrrrr! -
@codinghorror Again, different people react differently. I met someone who said he was a mean drunk when he specifically drank tequila. I know someone who turns into a teddy bear when drinking. Some people are boisterous, some introspective. Etc. Some have addictive personalties, some don’t.There are more shared things such as motor skills being affected, so no one should drink and drive. @Azuaron @mw @mekkaokereke
@CStamp @Azuaron @mw @mekkaokereke that is definitely true; the radical distortions in behavior depend on DNA/physiology. There are "happy drunks". But as my therapist said to me, ask bouncers if they'd rather work a concert where alcohol is on tap vs. THC and the response is almost unanimous
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@CStamp @Azuaron @mw @mekkaokereke that is definitely true; the radical distortions in behavior depend on DNA/physiology. There are "happy drunks". But as my therapist said to me, ask bouncers if they'd rather work a concert where alcohol is on tap vs. THC and the response is almost unanimous
@CStamp @Azuaron @mw @mekkaokereke this is also somewhat true of opiates, if you are a "rapid metabolizer"
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@mw @mekkaokereke "Researchers at the University of Zurich and Royal Holloway, University of London conducted a study of 120 women and found that testosterone promoted fairness in a bargaining game."
120 is interesting, not proof.
@CStamp
depending on effect size, 120 is a good number!
@mw @mekkaokereke @mekkaokereke -
@CStamp
depending on effect size, 120 is a good number!
@mw @mekkaokereke @mekkaokereke@iinavpov 120 is only big enough to indicate if more study would be warranted. With regards to only women, a lot of new meds fail because they had only been tested on men, to avoid issues with monthly changes of hormone levels on their results. @mw @mekkaokereke
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@iinavpov 120 is only big enough to indicate if more study would be warranted. With regards to only women, a lot of new meds fail because they had only been tested on men, to avoid issues with monthly changes of hormone levels on their results. @mw @mekkaokereke
@CStamp
no, it literally depends on the effect size.This is completely different than clinical or preclinical studies.
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@CStamp @Azuaron @mw @mekkaokereke that is definitely true; the radical distortions in behavior depend on DNA/physiology. There are "happy drunks". But as my therapist said to me, ask bouncers if they'd rather work a concert where alcohol is on tap vs. THC and the response is almost unanimous
@codinghorror @CStamp @Azuaron @mw @mekkaokereke The annual Behavior Training at Google had an episode where an off-site with people having wine etc was ok, but the guy sneaking a joint got the finger wag, and I remember thinking this same thing: internally, you know HR would prefer the stoned to the drunk ten out of ten times.
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@mw @CStamp @mekkaokereke The same thing has been shown to happen with alcohol. As much as 50% of "drunk behavior" happens when you give people quinine and tell them it's vodka. This effect has been shown to be true across cultures, where different cultures have different ideas about what "drunk behavior" is. People act more like a stereotypical drunk for their culture, specifically.
In America, people talk about alcohol reducing inhibitions, but most of the inhibition reduction, specifically, happens when people just think they have alcohol. The alcohol just gives them permission to drop their inhibitions.
This does not mean that alcohol doesn't impact the mind. It does. It just doesn't as much as people think it does, or necessarily in the ways that people think it does, but people behave as if it did.
@Azuaron @mw @CStamp @mekkaokereke
Do you have a link to that paper? I remember reading it like 10-15 years ago and then being completely unable to find it again.
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Yup.
Like I've said: roid rage isn't a real thing. It's not. Anyone that tries to tell you that it is a real thing, is probably trying to justify violence by petulant man-babies.
If you're thinking "But steroids can make you irritable!
" I don't care. All women get irritable. All women know how guns and knives work. But they don't shoot and stab and beat people every time they get irritable. Part of being an adult, is learning how to regulate your emotions. Keep your hands to yourself.Steroids don't make big men angry. Steroids make angry men big. What would've been a 150 lb twerp, is now a 200 lb twerp. Steroids give them the opportunity to try to live out their violence. When I worked as a bouncer in college, I often had to hulk-smash roided out dudes that don't understand that steroids won't help them against me, and that fighting is a skill, and that they didn't have that skill.
I've never taken steroids. I'm an elite level natural powerlifter. Many powerlifters and bodybuilders aren't natural, which means that they do take steroids and other performance enhancing drugs. They don't rage on people.
I don't judge people who take steroids for sports. I certainly don't judge people who do gender affirming care. I am pro-gender affirming care. What I'm against, is violent people that try to blame steroids as their excuse for hurting people that they perceive as smaller than them.
No.
It's not the steroids. It's you.
@mekkaokereke interesting note here on the "women know how guns work" comment. Baseline, American women have a significantly lower suicide rate than men because men are much more likely to successfully use firearms. *Except among female veterans* who have weapons training, are more likely than other women to own or have access to firearms and the same suicide rate as male veterans.
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@mekkaokereke interesting note here on the "women know how guns work" comment. Baseline, American women have a significantly lower suicide rate than men because men are much more likely to successfully use firearms. *Except among female veterans* who have weapons training, are more likely than other women to own or have access to firearms and the same suicide rate as male veterans.
@mekkaokereke This is also likely one of the boring reasons behind the high suicide rate among both veterans and police. They just have access to the tools necessary to kill someone successfully.
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Yup.
Like I've said: roid rage isn't a real thing. It's not. Anyone that tries to tell you that it is a real thing, is probably trying to justify violence by petulant man-babies.
If you're thinking "But steroids can make you irritable!
" I don't care. All women get irritable. All women know how guns and knives work. But they don't shoot and stab and beat people every time they get irritable. Part of being an adult, is learning how to regulate your emotions. Keep your hands to yourself.Steroids don't make big men angry. Steroids make angry men big. What would've been a 150 lb twerp, is now a 200 lb twerp. Steroids give them the opportunity to try to live out their violence. When I worked as a bouncer in college, I often had to hulk-smash roided out dudes that don't understand that steroids won't help them against me, and that fighting is a skill, and that they didn't have that skill.
I've never taken steroids. I'm an elite level natural powerlifter. Many powerlifters and bodybuilders aren't natural, which means that they do take steroids and other performance enhancing drugs. They don't rage on people.
I don't judge people who take steroids for sports. I certainly don't judge people who do gender affirming care. I am pro-gender affirming care. What I'm against, is violent people that try to blame steroids as their excuse for hurting people that they perceive as smaller than them.
No.
It's not the steroids. It's you.
@mekkaokereke I work in tech with a lot of Indian folk.
The women that talk (and talk over) people the way the men do get a lot of crap. And, sadly, that's what it's taken many of them to get ahead in their careers.
People on TRT often are no more "aggressive" than other men, but sometimes it's not as "regulated". It seems to come out more unexpectedly.
But, as women regularly experience, it's always there and often too much.
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Yup.
Like I've said: roid rage isn't a real thing. It's not. Anyone that tries to tell you that it is a real thing, is probably trying to justify violence by petulant man-babies.
If you're thinking "But steroids can make you irritable!
" I don't care. All women get irritable. All women know how guns and knives work. But they don't shoot and stab and beat people every time they get irritable. Part of being an adult, is learning how to regulate your emotions. Keep your hands to yourself.Steroids don't make big men angry. Steroids make angry men big. What would've been a 150 lb twerp, is now a 200 lb twerp. Steroids give them the opportunity to try to live out their violence. When I worked as a bouncer in college, I often had to hulk-smash roided out dudes that don't understand that steroids won't help them against me, and that fighting is a skill, and that they didn't have that skill.
I've never taken steroids. I'm an elite level natural powerlifter. Many powerlifters and bodybuilders aren't natural, which means that they do take steroids and other performance enhancing drugs. They don't rage on people.
I don't judge people who take steroids for sports. I certainly don't judge people who do gender affirming care. I am pro-gender affirming care. What I'm against, is violent people that try to blame steroids as their excuse for hurting people that they perceive as smaller than them.
No.
It's not the steroids. It's you.
@mekkaokereke I'm confused, I didn't think anabolic steroids and testosterone therapy were the same chemical.
I don't take either, but my father took T shots for many years to treat symptoms from prostate cancer.
Lower testosterone is also associated with higher symptoms of migraines in men, which I can attest to reducing after changing to a daily workout that naturally raised my testosterone.
My personal evidence is that raised T does not lead to being more aggressive; if anything, it has helped me treat CPTSD. So from a T perspective, I am in agreement. But I thought steroids acted on the body much differently than testosterone therapy.
Are they different?
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@mekkaokereke I'm confused, I didn't think anabolic steroids and testosterone therapy were the same chemical.
I don't take either, but my father took T shots for many years to treat symptoms from prostate cancer.
Lower testosterone is also associated with higher symptoms of migraines in men, which I can attest to reducing after changing to a daily workout that naturally raised my testosterone.
My personal evidence is that raised T does not lead to being more aggressive; if anything, it has helped me treat CPTSD. So from a T perspective, I am in agreement. But I thought steroids acted on the body much differently than testosterone therapy.
Are they different?
They're mostly the same.
Let's say that a steroid free 20 year old man has a baseline testosterone level of 1.0. Testosterone level decreases slowly over time.
By the time he hits 30, it will be 0.9.
When he is 40, it will be 0.8.
Testosterone therapy is basically a doctor saying "Hmm. You're 40. Your level should be 0.8. and it's natural to feel older... but your level is only 0.6! That's extra low! So I'm going to prescribe you 0.3 to start! You'll feel like you are 30 again!"
The man might report feeling even *better* than he did in his 30s, because maybe he was only at 0.7 when he was 30.
Now consider a bodybuilder at 20 years old. His natural level is at 1.1, a little higher. He goes to a drug dealer and either buys Testosterone, or more likely, something that will make his body product more testosterone. His testosterone level is now at 4.0.
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They're mostly the same.
Let's say that a steroid free 20 year old man has a baseline testosterone level of 1.0. Testosterone level decreases slowly over time.
By the time he hits 30, it will be 0.9.
When he is 40, it will be 0.8.
Testosterone therapy is basically a doctor saying "Hmm. You're 40. Your level should be 0.8. and it's natural to feel older... but your level is only 0.6! That's extra low! So I'm going to prescribe you 0.3 to start! You'll feel like you are 30 again!"
The man might report feeling even *better* than he did in his 30s, because maybe he was only at 0.7 when he was 30.
Now consider a bodybuilder at 20 years old. His natural level is at 1.1, a little higher. He goes to a drug dealer and either buys Testosterone, or more likely, something that will make his body product more testosterone. His testosterone level is now at 4.0.
@mekkaokereke Thanks for the explanation!
When I tested with low T at age 50, my doctor suggested I add some weights to my daily routine - on our scale of 1, I was at 0.01
This was the best advice for me because it led to the discovery of how good workouts lower my migraine activity.
Coincidentally, I heard this story yesterday on LAist about Looksmaxing, a trend where men put their looks above anything else. "Soft looksmaxing" is like nutrition and diets and working out, but "hard looksmaxing" is when enhancements like steroids are used.
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They're mostly the same.
Let's say that a steroid free 20 year old man has a baseline testosterone level of 1.0. Testosterone level decreases slowly over time.
By the time he hits 30, it will be 0.9.
When he is 40, it will be 0.8.
Testosterone therapy is basically a doctor saying "Hmm. You're 40. Your level should be 0.8. and it's natural to feel older... but your level is only 0.6! That's extra low! So I'm going to prescribe you 0.3 to start! You'll feel like you are 30 again!"
The man might report feeling even *better* than he did in his 30s, because maybe he was only at 0.7 when he was 30.
Now consider a bodybuilder at 20 years old. His natural level is at 1.1, a little higher. He goes to a drug dealer and either buys Testosterone, or more likely, something that will make his body product more testosterone. His testosterone level is now at 4.0.
This is 7x Mr. Olympia bodybuilding championship winner, who is speaking openly about all of the steroids and performance enhancing drugs that he took throughout his career.
It's mostly testosterone, and insulin.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-8O_IRMnHToBen Pakulski. Never won the Olympia. Mostly Testosterone.
https://m.youtube.com/shorts/KiwG-GDnen0If a steroid using bodybuilder could get a doctor to write them a TRT prescription to get to a testosterone level 4x baseline? Then they would do that first before any other PEDs. It's the same hormone. TRT testosterone is higher purity, so they could even take higher doses with fewer side effects.
And no, the top winning bodybuilders are not lying about how little testosterone they took. That's why so many pro bodybuilders admit to taking steroids, but are reluctant to say exactly how much they took. Steroids are not a magic equalizer. Someone who can build 260 lb of muscle without steroids, can easily take steroids to get to 280 lbs and win. Someone else who could only be 150 lb without steroids, cannot take enough steroids to get to 280 lbs, and still look good enough to beat the person who is naturally bigger.
A 150 lb high school student with insecurity, latent misogyny, depression, and other undiagnosed mental health issues, who wants to be big enough to play varsity football, will take steroids to get to be 250 lbs. But if he does not address his underlying rage issues, he is a much more dangerous person at 250 than at 150.
A male pro bodybuilder has naturally higher testosterone than this kid, and then on top of that, takes every steroid available to make his testosterone even higher. And yet, he doesn't put his hands on his spouse or friends or strangers. Because roid rage isn't real. It's an excuse we make to deflect responsibility for violent men.
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