What's the most common complaint I've heard about Linux?
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@brouhaha @Linux_in_a_Bit
"Saying RTFM in a smug and condescending way benefits no one."True. I was raised in the Old Culture, in which it was a Mortal Sin to ask a question if the answer could conceivably be found in any existing documentation. Greybeards, some of whom had written that documentation, used this belief to dismiss newcomers. Some, like Ulrich Drepper and Linus Torvalds, used it to abuse others as supplemental pay. RTFM will be tough to get past.
@drdirtbag @Linux_in_a_Bit
Saying RTFM is perhaps reasonable when coherent, well organized documentation exists. That was true of some commercial operating systems, and even arguably BSD. When I first started using BSD, in 1984, I had a printed set of manuals that was fairly good. Documentation for Windows, MacOS, and Linux is far less complete, coherent, or organized, so a new user, told RTFM, can not really be expected to find useful information.
(Also, enshittification of search results.) -
What's the most common complaint I've heard about Linux?Not the installation process.
Not finding a distro.
Not getting programs to work.
Not troubleshooting.
Not hardware compatibility.The most common complaint about Linux I've seen is this:
For a normal computer user, asking for help is just about impossible.They ask a simple question and:
People respond "Did you Google it?"
People complain that the question wasn't asked "correctly".
People respond "RTFM"
People get mad??? at them for making an easy mistake.We can't expect normal people to know to, or even know how to deal with any of that stuff.
Search engines these days are awful, manuals are hard to read for most people (especially stuff like ArchWiki), and normal people make mistakes we think are easily avoidable.
The solution to making Linux more popular is not ruthless promotion. The solution is to actually help the people who are trying to use it.
@Linux_in_a_Bit You hit the nail on the head. The problem isn't the technology, but the people.
Anyone looking for answers for Linux no longer asks in forums but resorts to any LLM. As a consequence, fewer and fewer answers will be found in forums in the future.
This also means that LLMs will have fewer sources, and therefore their answers will be even less useful in the future...
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What's the most common complaint I've heard about Linux?
Not the installation process.
Not finding a distro.
Not getting programs to work.
Not troubleshooting.
Not hardware compatibility.The most common complaint about Linux I've seen is this:
For a normal computer user, asking for help is just about impossible.They ask a simple question and:
People respond "Did you Google it?"
People complain that the question wasn't asked "correctly".
People respond "RTFM"
People get mad??? at them for making an easy mistake.We can't expect normal people to know to, or even know how to deal with any of that stuff.
Search engines these days are awful, manuals are hard to read for most people (especially stuff like ArchWiki), and normal people make mistakes we think are easily avoidable.
The solution to making Linux more popular is not ruthless promotion. The solution is to actually help the people who are trying to use it.
@Linux_in_a_Bit Why do you think Linux users should want it to be bigger? Growth is a monopolist thing. The community wrote the documentation for each distro. There is a limit to how many people who don't even try to help themselves any community. They SHOULD read the manual first. If they don't understand then people will see they've tried and help. That's part of the culture. They will be expected to 'pay that forward' as they advance too.
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What's the most common complaint I've heard about Linux?
Not the installation process.
Not finding a distro.
Not getting programs to work.
Not troubleshooting.
Not hardware compatibility.The most common complaint about Linux I've seen is this:
For a normal computer user, asking for help is just about impossible.They ask a simple question and:
People respond "Did you Google it?"
People complain that the question wasn't asked "correctly".
People respond "RTFM"
People get mad??? at them for making an easy mistake.We can't expect normal people to know to, or even know how to deal with any of that stuff.
Search engines these days are awful, manuals are hard to read for most people (especially stuff like ArchWiki), and normal people make mistakes we think are easily avoidable.
The solution to making Linux more popular is not ruthless promotion. The solution is to actually help the people who are trying to use it.
@Linux_in_a_Bit I do NOT want Linux to be more accessible or popular, otherwise it will become another Windows.
Tech thrived only when it was moderately meritocratic, now it is becoming another playfield for private equity companies. -
What's the most common complaint I've heard about Linux?
Not the installation process.
Not finding a distro.
Not getting programs to work.
Not troubleshooting.
Not hardware compatibility.The most common complaint about Linux I've seen is this:
For a normal computer user, asking for help is just about impossible.They ask a simple question and:
People respond "Did you Google it?"
People complain that the question wasn't asked "correctly".
People respond "RTFM"
People get mad??? at them for making an easy mistake.We can't expect normal people to know to, or even know how to deal with any of that stuff.
Search engines these days are awful, manuals are hard to read for most people (especially stuff like ArchWiki), and normal people make mistakes we think are easily avoidable.
The solution to making Linux more popular is not ruthless promotion. The solution is to actually help the people who are trying to use it.
@Linux_in_a_Bit
Yes. Asking for help on Windows, and responses come from normal users. Ask on Linux often gets an IT pro level person, who means well, but has NO CLUE about usability. And has never looked for an easy GUI way. And will often tell you there is only an IT hack to do it. The moment you ask for a way avoiding the CLI, many lecture you on their misguided idea of usability, and why the CLI is better. Try it. Specifically ask for a GUI method, and watch the friendly, helpful demeanor change. 'Go back to Windows' even. Gatekeeping at its worst. Why do those with least interest in usability, argue about it the most? -
What's the most common complaint I've heard about Linux?
Not the installation process.
Not finding a distro.
Not getting programs to work.
Not troubleshooting.
Not hardware compatibility.The most common complaint about Linux I've seen is this:
For a normal computer user, asking for help is just about impossible.They ask a simple question and:
People respond "Did you Google it?"
People complain that the question wasn't asked "correctly".
People respond "RTFM"
People get mad??? at them for making an easy mistake.We can't expect normal people to know to, or even know how to deal with any of that stuff.
Search engines these days are awful, manuals are hard to read for most people (especially stuff like ArchWiki), and normal people make mistakes we think are easily avoidable.
The solution to making Linux more popular is not ruthless promotion. The solution is to actually help the people who are trying to use it.
@Linux_in_a_Bit Which is what I always go when I see a question and I know the answer. We all had to learn and I was grateful for useful answers too, 25 years ago.
Helping people with actual advice is the way.
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What's the most common complaint I've heard about Linux?
Not the installation process.
Not finding a distro.
Not getting programs to work.
Not troubleshooting.
Not hardware compatibility.The most common complaint about Linux I've seen is this:
For a normal computer user, asking for help is just about impossible.They ask a simple question and:
People respond "Did you Google it?"
People complain that the question wasn't asked "correctly".
People respond "RTFM"
People get mad??? at them for making an easy mistake.We can't expect normal people to know to, or even know how to deal with any of that stuff.
Search engines these days are awful, manuals are hard to read for most people (especially stuff like ArchWiki), and normal people make mistakes we think are easily avoidable.
The solution to making Linux more popular is not ruthless promotion. The solution is to actually help the people who are trying to use it.
@Linux_in_a_Bit Why is this phrased like a LinkedIn post?
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What's the most common complaint I've heard about Linux?
Not the installation process.
Not finding a distro.
Not getting programs to work.
Not troubleshooting.
Not hardware compatibility.The most common complaint about Linux I've seen is this:
For a normal computer user, asking for help is just about impossible.They ask a simple question and:
People respond "Did you Google it?"
People complain that the question wasn't asked "correctly".
People respond "RTFM"
People get mad??? at them for making an easy mistake.We can't expect normal people to know to, or even know how to deal with any of that stuff.
Search engines these days are awful, manuals are hard to read for most people (especially stuff like ArchWiki), and normal people make mistakes we think are easily avoidable.
The solution to making Linux more popular is not ruthless promotion. The solution is to actually help the people who are trying to use it.
@Linux_in_a_Bit yes and proper docs. Because „RTFM“ is even worse, if your docs are only a man Page or html without screenshots
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What's the most common complaint I've heard about Linux?
Not the installation process.
Not finding a distro.
Not getting programs to work.
Not troubleshooting.
Not hardware compatibility.The most common complaint about Linux I've seen is this:
For a normal computer user, asking for help is just about impossible.They ask a simple question and:
People respond "Did you Google it?"
People complain that the question wasn't asked "correctly".
People respond "RTFM"
People get mad??? at them for making an easy mistake.We can't expect normal people to know to, or even know how to deal with any of that stuff.
Search engines these days are awful, manuals are hard to read for most people (especially stuff like ArchWiki), and normal people make mistakes we think are easily avoidable.
The solution to making Linux more popular is not ruthless promotion. The solution is to actually help the people who are trying to use it.
@Linux_in_a_Bit fuck elitists
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What's the most common complaint I've heard about Linux?
Not the installation process.
Not finding a distro.
Not getting programs to work.
Not troubleshooting.
Not hardware compatibility.The most common complaint about Linux I've seen is this:
For a normal computer user, asking for help is just about impossible.They ask a simple question and:
People respond "Did you Google it?"
People complain that the question wasn't asked "correctly".
People respond "RTFM"
People get mad??? at them for making an easy mistake.We can't expect normal people to know to, or even know how to deal with any of that stuff.
Search engines these days are awful, manuals are hard to read for most people (especially stuff like ArchWiki), and normal people make mistakes we think are easily avoidable.
The solution to making Linux more popular is not ruthless promotion. The solution is to actually help the people who are trying to use it.
@Linux_in_a_Bit It's always the same old story: Questions about Windows or iOS are handled unfriendly on the Internet also (have you ever seen a friendly printer forum
). This is not a Linux community problem. This is a behavioral problem on the Internet. But it's true, being friendly could be an extra chance.I am helping the people around me who now have Linux instead of windows in the same friendly way
But there is much less to do
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What's the most common complaint I've heard about Linux?
Not the installation process.
Not finding a distro.
Not getting programs to work.
Not troubleshooting.
Not hardware compatibility.The most common complaint about Linux I've seen is this:
For a normal computer user, asking for help is just about impossible.They ask a simple question and:
People respond "Did you Google it?"
People complain that the question wasn't asked "correctly".
People respond "RTFM"
People get mad??? at them for making an easy mistake.We can't expect normal people to know to, or even know how to deal with any of that stuff.
Search engines these days are awful, manuals are hard to read for most people (especially stuff like ArchWiki), and normal people make mistakes we think are easily avoidable.
The solution to making Linux more popular is not ruthless promotion. The solution is to actually help the people who are trying to use it.
@Linux_in_a_Bit On the other hand, people always act as if non-IT people are completely stupid. They are not. They also solve Windows and Linux problems on their own, I've seen it often enough. In my opinion, with AI tools they make it even further with Linux than with Windows, because the information quality, availability, and quantity are higher with Linux. With Windows, the information situation is usually poor. And there's nothing you can do with iOS anyway.
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What's the most common complaint I've heard about Linux?
Not the installation process.
Not finding a distro.
Not getting programs to work.
Not troubleshooting.
Not hardware compatibility.The most common complaint about Linux I've seen is this:
For a normal computer user, asking for help is just about impossible.They ask a simple question and:
People respond "Did you Google it?"
People complain that the question wasn't asked "correctly".
People respond "RTFM"
People get mad??? at them for making an easy mistake.We can't expect normal people to know to, or even know how to deal with any of that stuff.
Search engines these days are awful, manuals are hard to read for most people (especially stuff like ArchWiki), and normal people make mistakes we think are easily avoidable.
The solution to making Linux more popular is not ruthless promotion. The solution is to actually help the people who are trying to use it.
Definitely.
Meanwhile most of the questions normal users have will be – politely – answered by any LLM of choice.
It’s the challenge for the human IT people to outmatch this.;) -
@Linux_in_a_Bit Another common thing I've encountered is feeling like people aren't really listening to you or aren't willing to take the time to understand the situation before they start throwing stuff at you.
This is sometimes how people recommend Linux itself, as a solution to a problem in a situation where switching to Linux would either be unfeasible or where that'd cause a lot more headache than simply finding a workaround for now and look into switching to linux at a later date when you're not actively trying to solve a problem.
A lot of these issues, I feel like, come from an inability a lot of people have to admit they don't know something. That's why they feel the need to make it out like you're the one wrong for asking the question, or try and steer them towards something you do have an expertise in even if that thing isn't actually helpful in the situation.
No reasonable person is gonna think less if you just admit you don't know. "I don't know, but I'll try looking into it" is a lot better than bullshitting some answer or deflecting the question. And when it comes to computers in particular, I'm pretty convinced there are only two kinds of people: people who don't know what they are doing at least half the time and people who are lying.
@Owlor Semi-related: I have chosen what companies to do business with *literally* because someone at the other end of the phone call was willing to say "I don't know, let me check with a colleague".
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What's the most common complaint I've heard about Linux?
Not the installation process.
Not finding a distro.
Not getting programs to work.
Not troubleshooting.
Not hardware compatibility.The most common complaint about Linux I've seen is this:
For a normal computer user, asking for help is just about impossible.They ask a simple question and:
People respond "Did you Google it?"
People complain that the question wasn't asked "correctly".
People respond "RTFM"
People get mad??? at them for making an easy mistake.We can't expect normal people to know to, or even know how to deal with any of that stuff.
Search engines these days are awful, manuals are hard to read for most people (especially stuff like ArchWiki), and normal people make mistakes we think are easily avoidable.
The solution to making Linux more popular is not ruthless promotion. The solution is to actually help the people who are trying to use it.
I have said it before in places, but one of my big motivations for when I write something up on my web site is those times when I, having used Linux as a primary desktop OS for a quarter century, can't easily find an answer to something I want to do.
*Because that happens!*
I even make mistakes from time to time.
And I try to channel that energy when others ask for help. And even when I don't have an answer, I try to be helpful in helping the person *find* an answer.
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What's the most common complaint I've heard about Linux?
Not the installation process.
Not finding a distro.
Not getting programs to work.
Not troubleshooting.
Not hardware compatibility.The most common complaint about Linux I've seen is this:
For a normal computer user, asking for help is just about impossible.They ask a simple question and:
People respond "Did you Google it?"
People complain that the question wasn't asked "correctly".
People respond "RTFM"
People get mad??? at them for making an easy mistake.We can't expect normal people to know to, or even know how to deal with any of that stuff.
Search engines these days are awful, manuals are hard to read for most people (especially stuff like ArchWiki), and normal people make mistakes we think are easily avoidable.
The solution to making Linux more popular is not ruthless promotion. The solution is to actually help the people who are trying to use it.
@Linux_in_a_Bit There are more than one side to this. Consider how you ask the question?
I have experienced
Questions asked in a "please just do it for me" fashion.
Question asked with a "this is just too complicated! Why is linux so hard!!!" (when really, it is equally complicated on Windows, just done differently)If you ask a question and "people get mad", there could possibly be something in how you ask the question?
People get upset and frustrated because they have to invest a little time in figuring out how things work differently, and get mad because they don't get the answer in a "follow these simple step" fashioned, served instantly.
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@Linux_in_a_Bit I would love to help folk with Linux, but nobody I know in person cares to switch.
@nieuemma Most people don't, and to justify not switching, they make up stuff like "linux users are too angry and their answers are too geeky so unless they get friendlier, I am not switching!", but it mostly boils down to not wanting to switch and just needing a reason to keep justify using big tech products.
Like people who make an effort to avoid it should be there to do the job for them, for free.
@Linux_in_a_Bit -
Definitely.
Meanwhile most of the questions normal users have will be – politely – answered by any LLM of choice.
It’s the challenge for the human IT people to outmatch this.;)@_RyekDarkener_ Justify using something made by theft and draining our resources because people that use a product are not willing to tell you how to do things, unpaid...
Quite a few of us are very willing to teach people how to use linux, but we are not techsupport ready to fix a problem, like most seem to want.
@Linux_in_a_Bit -
What's the most common complaint I've heard about Linux?
Not the installation process.
Not finding a distro.
Not getting programs to work.
Not troubleshooting.
Not hardware compatibility.The most common complaint about Linux I've seen is this:
For a normal computer user, asking for help is just about impossible.They ask a simple question and:
People respond "Did you Google it?"
People complain that the question wasn't asked "correctly".
People respond "RTFM"
People get mad??? at them for making an easy mistake.We can't expect normal people to know to, or even know how to deal with any of that stuff.
Search engines these days are awful, manuals are hard to read for most people (especially stuff like ArchWiki), and normal people make mistakes we think are easily avoidable.
The solution to making Linux more popular is not ruthless promotion. The solution is to actually help the people who are trying to use it.
@Linux_in_a_Bit Standardization and documentation
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@malte @Slacker @Kancept On the one hand:
You deserve to be appreciated when offering help to a 'noob', & their frustration does not make it okay for them to be rude. You don't need to put up with abuse.
On the other hand:
"I won't help you b/c you were too frustrated by your problem to adhere to my expectations, & I did not have the patience to tolerate incivility which I knew was not directed at me" doesn't seem like a viable solution.
Thoughts?
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@brouhaha @Linux_in_a_Bit
"Saying RTFM in a smug and condescending way benefits no one."True. I was raised in the Old Culture, in which it was a Mortal Sin to ask a question if the answer could conceivably be found in any existing documentation. Greybeards, some of whom had written that documentation, used this belief to dismiss newcomers. Some, like Ulrich Drepper and Linus Torvalds, used it to abuse others as supplemental pay. RTFM will be tough to get past.
@drdirtbag @brouhaha @Linux_in_a_Bit 100%
I feel like there should be a series of infographics on "How to actually help & encourage new Linux users" that includes "phrases & responses to avoid at all times".
Lots of well-meaning but poorly-equipped (& rarely trained) tech support, out there.
🧑
