Can we instead stop ceding all the words that are useful descriptors to the right just because they start using them?
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@jonah The EU are asking the wrong people the wrong questions whilst tying up the right people in endless red tape
@jonah when I deal with them I state my age and tell them the average lifespan of a male in my country and challenge them to resolve the issue before I die in 35 years.
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RE: https://tldr.nettime.org/@tante/116435835882195004
Can we instead stop ceding all the words that are useful descriptors to the right just because they start using them?
I also have this issue with libertarianism, which should describe a useful political position about liberty from government abuses independently from your views on economic policies, but now just makes you sound like a gun toting nut. This makes it harder to defend against the narrative that everyone on the left is rooting for some authoritarian communist society.
The same goes for many internet memes and sayings that were once universally used, e.g. Pepe the Frog. It is no wonder members of younger generations keep falling to the alt-right, when the right is co-opting all the things they enjoy, and everyone else not only lets them, but actively works to make those popular things be seen as hateful. In this example, the popular idea that Pepe the Frog is a hate symbol stems almost entirely from some uninformed, reactionary article the Clinton campaign posted to try and smear Trump, then got the media to repeat forever.
@jonah Enourmous damage has been done by conceding the concept of "free speech" in this way. In the previous century, freedom of expression was a progressive value (the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, landmark cases in flag burning, etc.), now everyone just sees us as the annoying fun police/word police.
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@jonah Enourmous damage has been done by conceding the concept of "free speech" in this way. In the previous century, freedom of expression was a progressive value (the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, landmark cases in flag burning, etc.), now everyone just sees us as the annoying fun police/word police.
@elgringomexicano @jonah As a geolibertarian and advocate for the RTKBA, I often point out that libertarianism is an *inherently left wing ideology*, and that the vast majority of people who believe themselves to be libertarians are actually the antithesis of libertarian, they are authoritarians. The basis of Liberty is and can only possibly be Equality. We must be Free precisely because we are all Equal in human dignity. Liberty cannot be divorced from Economics.
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@elgringomexicano @jonah As a geolibertarian and advocate for the RTKBA, I often point out that libertarianism is an *inherently left wing ideology*, and that the vast majority of people who believe themselves to be libertarians are actually the antithesis of libertarian, they are authoritarians. The basis of Liberty is and can only possibly be Equality. We must be Free precisely because we are all Equal in human dignity. Liberty cannot be divorced from Economics.
@gcvsa @elgringomexicano not to break out the flawed political compass, but there is a reason the answers are nearly always distributed like this. Right-wing libertarianism and left-wing authoritarianism are nonsense ideas that do not work in the real world.
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@gcvsa @elgringomexicano not to break out the flawed political compass, but there is a reason the answers are nearly always distributed like this. Right-wing libertarianism and left-wing authoritarianism are nonsense ideas that do not work in the real world.
@gcvsa also to be clear, when I say "gun toting nut" I mean people who make the RTKBA their entire personality and political position. I also generally support the RTKBA actually lol
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RE: https://tldr.nettime.org/@tante/116435835882195004
Can we instead stop ceding all the words that are useful descriptors to the right just because they start using them?
I also have this issue with libertarianism, which should describe a useful political position about liberty from government abuses independently from your views on economic policies, but now just makes you sound like a gun toting nut. This makes it harder to defend against the narrative that everyone on the left is rooting for some authoritarian communist society.
The same goes for many internet memes and sayings that were once universally used, e.g. Pepe the Frog. It is no wonder members of younger generations keep falling to the alt-right, when the right is co-opting all the things they enjoy, and everyone else not only lets them, but actively works to make those popular things be seen as hateful. In this example, the popular idea that Pepe the Frog is a hate symbol stems almost entirely from some uninformed, reactionary article the Clinton campaign posted to try and smear Trump, then got the media to repeat forever.
@jonah
Well said. Fascists have been historically very prone to confusing and dividing their enemies with utter nonsense, often attempting to rewrite/stain aspects of certain demographics. So when I notice someone is trying to push everyone to stop doing, saying or even thinking something that's harmless or even beneficial just because of some new political propaganda, I'm suspicious of that person. -
@jonah
Well said. Fascists have been historically very prone to confusing and dividing their enemies with utter nonsense, often attempting to rewrite/stain aspects of certain demographics. So when I notice someone is trying to push everyone to stop doing, saying or even thinking something that's harmless or even beneficial just because of some new political propaganda, I'm suspicious of that person.@tuneintodetuned and to be fair, I did read one of the blog posts that @tante published with more details on the subject, and don't entirely disagree with him.
Where I do disagree is the notion that the saying "When you move a step towards them trying to find a compromise they will make a step back and keep dragging you with them" applies here to our language.
In reality, I think what is happening here is not our language taking a step towards the right, but the alt-right running over to nab our ideas and appropriate them, and we are continuing to roll over and let them do so.
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@gcvsa @elgringomexicano not to break out the flawed political compass, but there is a reason the answers are nearly always distributed like this. Right-wing libertarianism and left-wing authoritarianism are nonsense ideas that do not work in the real world.
@jonah @elgringomexicano And here's me, just sipping my tea.
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@gcvsa also to be clear, when I say "gun toting nut" I mean people who make the RTKBA their entire personality and political position. I also generally support the RTKBA actually lol
@jonah Oh, believe me, as a queer woman of color and a leftist whose hobbies are very heavily dominated by cis het white men, I'm familiar with the type, especially in online firearms enthusiast forums.
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@jonah @elgringomexicano And here's me, just sipping my tea.
@gcvsa probably also around there.
I hear this as a frequent criticism of the political compass, that it places too many people in the green, but I think instead that is just evidence that politicians are so out of touch with what most people actually want.
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@tuneintodetuned and to be fair, I did read one of the blog posts that @tante published with more details on the subject, and don't entirely disagree with him.
Where I do disagree is the notion that the saying "When you move a step towards them trying to find a compromise they will make a step back and keep dragging you with them" applies here to our language.
In reality, I think what is happening here is not our language taking a step towards the right, but the alt-right running over to nab our ideas and appropriate them, and we are continuing to roll over and let them do so.
@jonah
The best reaction against these distractions would be to hold ground, I think. I also see them as a form of conversation hijacking (not the cybersecurity type). It's too easy to accidentally legitimize a lie when acknowledging a liar as part of a conversation, and I believe the same happens when we flee or retaliate against their misuse of language. -
RE: https://tldr.nettime.org/@tante/116435835882195004
Can we instead stop ceding all the words that are useful descriptors to the right just because they start using them?
I also have this issue with libertarianism, which should describe a useful political position about liberty from government abuses independently from your views on economic policies, but now just makes you sound like a gun toting nut. This makes it harder to defend against the narrative that everyone on the left is rooting for some authoritarian communist society.
The same goes for many internet memes and sayings that were once universally used, e.g. Pepe the Frog. It is no wonder members of younger generations keep falling to the alt-right, when the right is co-opting all the things they enjoy, and everyone else not only lets them, but actively works to make those popular things be seen as hateful. In this example, the popular idea that Pepe the Frog is a hate symbol stems almost entirely from some uninformed, reactionary article the Clinton campaign posted to try and smear Trump, then got the media to repeat forever.
@jonah It was fun the first time I told someone I was a bit stoic by nature and got told that apparently the far-right/manosphere has co-opted "stoicism" to mean "fuck everyone who isn't me."
Pretty soon we just won't be able to talk at all cause all the words will be co-opted. Which is probably what they want anyways.
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