If you have to do or participate in something in order to survive, it's not a privilege, right?
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I think the best way to respond to this.
How many people, in response to anything involving the government spending money on someone other than themselves for those things that people need to survive, ask, "Can we afford that?"
How often have we heard that question asked when their real meaning is, "Do we really have to spend money on *those* people?"
And, ultimately, if it involves human lives - if it involves saving that "Life, liberty, pursuit of happiness" stuff - how can we not afford it?
@NicolaElle I hear you, but the context was different. Here's what I'm getting at:
Revoluciana (@revoluciana@chaosfem.tw)
@aburka@hachyderm.io a conversation IRL. Basically someone was insisting that trans women experience "male privilege" before transition. I've since sent them Julia Serrano's piece about being denied the closet. https://juliaserano.medium.com/why-are-amab-trans-people-denied-the-closet-7fd5c740ce30 Even so. I just don't see what this other person was insisting, because if we were forced to participate in something or else be punished, and for the sake of survival, I can't see how that's a privilege.
Chaosfem (chaosfem.tw)
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@revoluciana I've used my privilege to survive lots of times
@amsomniac but that was *your* privilege.
Trans women are not men. We don't experience male privilege because we are not men-- it's not our privilege. We were forced under pain and punishment to perform a role for survival. That's not the same.
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@amsomniac but that was *your* privilege.
Trans women are not men. We don't experience male privilege because we are not men-- it's not our privilege. We were forced under pain and punishment to perform a role for survival. That's not the same.
@revoluciana yeah nothing about it was male
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@aburka a conversation IRL. Basically someone was insisting that trans women experience "male privilege" before transition.
I've since sent them Julia Serrano's piece about being denied the closet.
Even so. I just don't see what this other person was insisting, because if we were forced to participate in something or else be punished, and for the sake of survival, I can't see how that's a privilege.
I think @MzAprilDaniels had the best response to any sort of "privilege":
“The dirty little secret about growing up as a boy is if you’re not any good at it, they will torture you daily until you have the good graces to kill yourself. The posturing and the dominance games are almost inescapable. It’s hard to walk from one end of school to the other without getting shoulder-checked in the halls. Locker rooms are a forgotten circle of Hell. God forbid anyone ever catch you sketching flowers in class, or reading a book that’s “for girls.” Maybe for people who really are boys, that stuff works. Maybe it fits for them.
But I don’t get to fit. Not anywhere.”
Not much of a "privilege", is it?
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@aburka a conversation IRL. Basically someone was insisting that trans women experience "male privilege" before transition.
I've since sent them Julia Serrano's piece about being denied the closet.
Even so. I just don't see what this other person was insisting, because if we were forced to participate in something or else be punished, and for the sake of survival, I can't see how that's a privilege.
As a middle aged middle class cis-het white guy: oh, this expands and nuances my thoughts on privilege. Privilege forced on one due to a false understanding of who one is, feels like that could be snatched away in a instant and turned into danger. So "play along" with the lie in order to survive? Falter in holding the facade could lead to not surviving.
Or am I completely misunderstanding?Feels like not actual privilege though. But might look like it on the surface?
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If you have to do or participate in something in order to survive, it's not a privilege, right? It can't possibly be? I feel like we've already established this. Am I wrong?
@revoluciana they're not mutually exclusive categories... if for example someone is mixed race but white passing, it's not good that they have to hide their heritage to avoid racism at work but they are still better off than people unable to pass as white
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If you have to do or participate in something in order to survive, it's not a privilege, right? It can't possibly be? I feel like we've already established this. Am I wrong?
‘Privilege’ isn’t a thing you do…
️Like: as a cis white man in north america I am accorded all kinds of privilege by the people and systems in our society whether I want them or not, whether I ask for them or not, whether I fight and try to dismantle them or lean in and embrace or pursue them.
How that intersects with trans experience is something I can’t even begin to try to guess at.
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If you have to do or participate in something in order to survive, it's not a privilege, right? It can't possibly be? I feel like we've already established this. Am I wrong?
@revoluciana It's all relative and tied into deservidness narratives.
It's probably healthier to just remember that people out there have it harder than you, but your problems also matter.
Some people try to turn it into this idea that you can't complain about your problems, because you are in a better position but that's kinda being an asshole.
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@revoluciana yeah nothing about it was male
@amsomniac I truly apologize. I didn't mean to imply that yours was male privilege and that definitely looks like it. I'm in an argument IRL with someone which is getting heated and then I was speaking generally to you to my point in response to you and it came off really shitty. I'm very sorry.
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@amsomniac I truly apologize. I didn't mean to imply that yours was male privilege and that definitely looks like it. I'm in an argument IRL with someone which is getting heated and then I was speaking generally to you to my point in response to you and it came off really shitty. I'm very sorry.
@revoluciana oh no worries. I hope you win the argument
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‘Privilege’ isn’t a thing you do…
️Like: as a cis white man in north america I am accorded all kinds of privilege by the people and systems in our society whether I want them or not, whether I ask for them or not, whether I fight and try to dismantle them or lean in and embrace or pursue them.
How that intersects with trans experience is something I can’t even begin to try to guess at.
@DavidM_yeg that's inherently my point. This is helpful.
You're afforded these things because of the way society and systems reward you simply because of who you are.
Even if a trans woman *was* afforded these things before coming out (we're often not afforded these things), it's not afforded because of who she is, but because of who she was punished into pretending to be. In other words, she had to sacrifice in order to get those things. She had to sacrifice her entire self through torture and pain in order to have them. That doesn't feel like privilege when it's paid for through sacrifice.
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In reply to the question of privilege:
Here's what I'm getting at.
Trans women don't experience male privilege before coming out. It's not a privilege if you have to sacrifice everything you are in order to obtain it. And in the case of trans women, we don't even sacrifice who we are in order to obtain male privilege, we do it just to survive. I'm having such a difficult time believing it's privilege when it's bought and paid for, especially at such a high price.
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Here's what I'm getting at.
Trans women don't experience male privilege before coming out. It's not a privilege if you have to sacrifice everything you are in order to obtain it. And in the case of trans women, we don't even sacrifice who we are in order to obtain male privilege, we do it just to survive. I'm having such a difficult time believing it's privilege when it's bought and paid for, especially at such a high price.
@revoluciana I'm not sure.
I mean, you got a point.
But there are several life experiences, some are male related that we don't and never liked to do, other are human experiences made easy by presenting male.
It happens also for trans men. -
Here's what I'm getting at.
Trans women don't experience male privilege before coming out. It's not a privilege if you have to sacrifice everything you are in order to obtain it. And in the case of trans women, we don't even sacrifice who we are in order to obtain male privilege, we do it just to survive. I'm having such a difficult time believing it's privilege when it's bought and paid for, especially at such a high price.
@revoluciana Identification with and belonging to a group is more nuanced than labels.
What is a privilege?
«Etymology
From Middle English privilege, from Anglo-Norman privilege and Old French privilege, from Latin prīvilēgium (“ordinance or law against or in favor of an individual”), from prīvus (“private”) + lēx, lēg- (“law”).
(countable) A particular benefit, advantage, or favor; a right or immunity enjoyed by some but not others; a prerogative, preferential treatment. [from 10th c.]
Synonyms: franchise, immunity, prerogative, right, (Scotland, Northern England) freelage
All first-year professors here must teach four courses a term, yet you're only teaching one! What entitled you to such a privilege?». . . —
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@revoluciana Identification with and belonging to a group is more nuanced than labels.
What is a privilege?
«Etymology
From Middle English privilege, from Anglo-Norman privilege and Old French privilege, from Latin prīvilēgium (“ordinance or law against or in favor of an individual”), from prīvus (“private”) + lēx, lēg- (“law”).
(countable) A particular benefit, advantage, or favor; a right or immunity enjoyed by some but not others; a prerogative, preferential treatment. [from 10th c.]
Synonyms: franchise, immunity, prerogative, right, (Scotland, Northern England) freelage
All first-year professors here must teach four courses a term, yet you're only teaching one! What entitled you to such a privilege?». . . —
@revoluciana . . . — What is male privilege?
«Peggy McIntosh, one of the first feminist scholars to examine male privilege, wrote about both male privilege and white privilege, using the metaphor of the "invisible knapsack" to describe a set of advantages borne, often unaware and unacknowledged, by members of privileged groups.[1] According to McIntosh, privilege is not a result of a concerted effort to oppress those of the opposite gender; however, the inherent benefits that men gain from the systemic bias put women at an innate disadvantage. The benefits of this unspoken privilege may be described as special provisions, tools, relationships, or various other opportunities. According to McIntosh, this privilege may actually negatively affect men's development as human beings, and few question that the existing structure of advantages may be challenged or changed.[4]»
. . . —
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@revoluciana . . . — What is male privilege?
«Peggy McIntosh, one of the first feminist scholars to examine male privilege, wrote about both male privilege and white privilege, using the metaphor of the "invisible knapsack" to describe a set of advantages borne, often unaware and unacknowledged, by members of privileged groups.[1] According to McIntosh, privilege is not a result of a concerted effort to oppress those of the opposite gender; however, the inherent benefits that men gain from the systemic bias put women at an innate disadvantage. The benefits of this unspoken privilege may be described as special provisions, tools, relationships, or various other opportunities. According to McIntosh, this privilege may actually negatively affect men's development as human beings, and few question that the existing structure of advantages may be challenged or changed.[4]»
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@revoluciana . . . — Under this concept,
Do trans people treated as men receive male privileges?
Yes, that is inherent to the concept of Societies which distribute privileges identifying someone as Male
Does this benefit trans people? No, that is apparent from the experience of trans people, the origination of the concept, and the fact that the experience of society treating someone as male is not totally uniform.
Trans people would fall under the category of people for whom male privilege does not always function as a positive but as a burden, hindrance, harm, or otherwise manifests its negative aspects
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Here's what I'm getting at.
Trans women don't experience male privilege before coming out. It's not a privilege if you have to sacrifice everything you are in order to obtain it. And in the case of trans women, we don't even sacrifice who we are in order to obtain male privilege, we do it just to survive. I'm having such a difficult time believing it's privilege when it's bought and paid for, especially at such a high price.
@revoluciana Broadly speaking, no, pre-transition trans women do not have male privilege, at least not in the way cis white men do.
But also, white privileged, male privilege, passing privilege and things of that nature are instantaneous and situational. You may have some boost in one context in one moment and be abused for who you are in the next. Are there aspects of my life which were improved by a couple decades of people taking me more seriously because they thought I was a white dude? Yes. Am I now spending all that money on therapy because I’m so fucked up from what playing that role cost me? Also yes.
I don’t really think it’s a binary thing that you have or don’t. It’s intersectional.
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@revoluciana I'm not sure.
I mean, you got a point.
But there are several life experiences, some are male related that we don't and never liked to do, other are human experiences made easy by presenting male.
It happens also for trans men.@natasha (to be clear, none of what I have been saying is meant as oppositional to the experience of trans men or to invalidate their experiences in any way)
To your point, regardless of enjoyment, you kind of make my own point: it was made easier by *presenting* male. It's only through the sacrifice of self that made it possible. These things aren't afforded to trans women because of who they are, but because of the pain and punishment they have endured in order to survive. How can it be privilege if it's paid for through sacrifice of self?
Which is not to say that other forms of intersectional privilege don't exist. A white trans woman still has white privilege that's afforded to her because of her whiteness.
But a trans woman has male privilege because of what? Her male-ness? That doesn't sit right.
If a person of color has to code switch to get work among white people, I have a hard time believing that they're experiencing white privilege. They're not white-- they're being forced to perform whiteness.
Likewise, trans women who perform the part of a man for survival are not experiencing male privilege. They're not male-- they're performing maleness.
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Here's what I'm getting at.
Trans women don't experience male privilege before coming out. It's not a privilege if you have to sacrifice everything you are in order to obtain it. And in the case of trans women, we don't even sacrifice who we are in order to obtain male privilege, we do it just to survive. I'm having such a difficult time believing it's privilege when it's bought and paid for, especially at such a high price.
@revoluciana
Why Are AMAB trans people denied the closet? by Julia Serano -
@revoluciana . . . — Under this concept,
Do trans people treated as men receive male privileges?
Yes, that is inherent to the concept of Societies which distribute privileges identifying someone as Male
Does this benefit trans people? No, that is apparent from the experience of trans people, the origination of the concept, and the fact that the experience of society treating someone as male is not totally uniform.
Trans people would fall under the category of people for whom male privilege does not always function as a positive but as a burden, hindrance, harm, or otherwise manifests its negative aspects
@celestestormysea under this definition, if a cis woman works really hard and sacrifices in order to obtain the same benefits, then she is receiving male privilege. That doesn't square up for me.
