when do you usually use the man page for a complex command line tool to answer a question you have?
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i'm very curious about everyone who says "I'd look there first", if I want to figure out how to do something new I think I'll usually google how to do it rather than look at the man page, and then maybe later look at the man page to look up the details
(I've gotten enough of these answers:
- "I like that man pages don't require changing context"
- "with the man page I know I have the right version of the docs")@b0rk I started out using man pages before the web was a thing and it’s stuck with me. Too often a web search gives you info on a different variant so options don’t work. That’s if you can find details at all, more a now problem than 5-10 years ago. I’ve always been annoyed with the `info` system. It’s been a few years since I last used it. My path is usually try for a man page, then web search, then remember there’s this `info` thing but I usually strike out there too. I do love a good page that has a nice collection of examples, especially for those complicated commands and functions.
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i'm very curious about everyone who says "I'd look there first", if I want to figure out how to do something new I think I'll usually google how to do it rather than look at the man page, and then maybe later look at the man page to look up the details
(I've gotten enough of these answers:
- "I like that man pages don't require changing context"
- "with the man page I know I have the right version of the docs")@b0rk to be honest, I'll often look there first, but immediately get overwhelmed and try a web search instead.
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i'm very curious about everyone who says "I'd look there first", if I want to figure out how to do something new I think I'll usually google how to do it rather than look at the man page, and then maybe later look at the man page to look up the details
(I've gotten enough of these answers:
- "I like that man pages don't require changing context"
- "with the man page I know I have the right version of the docs")@b0rk Probably has to do with how you grew up on the internet. Before StackOverflow, there really wouldn’t have been anything useful on the web; “RTFM” was indeed the generic advice (and sometimes phrased more politely) on Usenet and mailing lists.
Also a factor: the quality of the man pages you’re used to (BSD man pages tend(ed?) to be significantly better than “go use the ‘info’ page” Linux default).
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i'm very curious about everyone who says "I'd look there first", if I want to figure out how to do something new I think I'll usually google how to do it rather than look at the man page, and then maybe later look at the man page to look up the details
(I've gotten enough of these answers:
- "I like that man pages don't require changing context"
- "with the man page I know I have the right version of the docs")@b0rk This, when I started in IT not much was on the Internet, man pages, another person, or dead tree books were the first place you looked. As time has progressed, search engines slowly surpassed man pages and books, until recently, now I generally will use a man page before a search, or even an ai, but I have a deep instinctual aversion to ai
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also it just occurred to me that the one time I wrote a command line tool (https://rbspy.github.io/) I didn't write a man page for it, I made a documentation website instead. I don't remember even considering writing a man page, probably because I rarely use man pages
(not looking to argue about whether command line tools "should" have man pages or not, just reflecting about how maybe I personally would prefer a good docs website over a man page. Also please no "webpages require internet")
@b0rk FWIW, I first write the man page, then the code. Helps me clarify what the user wants, how I will interact with the tool. I then generate the README from the man page.
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when do you usually use the man page for a complex command line tool to answer a question you have? (like git, openssl, rsync, curl, etc)
(edit: no need to say "i use --help then man")
@b0rk adding because you lumped man with —help, usually I try -h/—help first then look for authoritative docs
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@b0rk adding because you lumped man with —help, usually I try -h/—help first then look for authoritative docs
@machinewitch haha yeah I added the note about --help because 20 different people said "i use --help first then man"
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when do you usually use the man page for a complex command line tool to answer a question you have? (like git, openssl, rsync, curl, etc)
(edit: no need to say "i use --help then man")
@b0rk in my experience, man pages are written by experts for experts with exhaustive information, while a web search is more likely to point you to the most common uses for the command, or other people asking exactly what you need.
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i'm very curious about everyone who says "I'd look there first", if I want to figure out how to do something new I think I'll usually google how to do it rather than look at the man page, and then maybe later look at the man page to look up the details
(I've gotten enough of these answers:
- "I like that man pages don't require changing context"
- "with the man page I know I have the right version of the docs")@b0rk My recollection is that a lot of searches for command line info would come up with web man pages, like Ubuntu's or... linux.die.net? Only later did forum posts show up.
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when do you usually use the man page for a complex command line tool to answer a question you have? (like git, openssl, rsync, curl, etc)
(edit: no need to say "i use --help then man")
@b0rk yeah if I know the tool has a good man page or help. I will try to use that first.
However, not all tools are equal. Some tools have not even a man page or something. In those cases a google search and stackoverflow often will do.
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i'm very curious about everyone who says "I'd look there first", if I want to figure out how to do something new I think I'll usually google how to do it rather than look at the man page, and then maybe later look at the man page to look up the details
(I've gotten enough of these answers:
- "I like that man pages don't require changing context"
- "with the man page I know I have the right version of the docs")@b0rk I do a grep or search on the help output or in the man page. Searching on terms..
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i think part of the reason I'm feeling interested in man pages right now even though I rarely use them is that search has gotten so much worse, it's frustrating, and it makes it feel more appealing to have trustworthy sources with clear explanations
@b0rk Ai is also not helping, if you are using llm? A good man page or help output can correct AIs.
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@kaleissin @b0rk @karabaic I also wish there are more man pages under Linux.
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also it just occurred to me that the one time I wrote a command line tool (https://rbspy.github.io/) I didn't write a man page for it, I made a documentation website instead. I don't remember even considering writing a man page, probably because I rarely use man pages
(not looking to argue about whether command line tools "should" have man pages or not, just reflecting about how maybe I personally would prefer a good docs website over a man page. Also please no "webpages require internet")
@b0rk getting good documentation is the important bit. One good thing about mandoc is you can render your man page as html and serve it from you website.
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i think part of the reason I'm feeling interested in man pages right now even though I rarely use them is that search has gotten so much worse, it's frustrating, and it makes it feel more appealing to have trustworthy sources with clear explanations
@b0rk I feel this. The part about search is the main point. keyword/regex search in man has always been a bit awkward even with helpers, google used to be great at bringing up the official site or man pages (which, even if it was for a diferent distro, at least help with context).
usually I try `-h` or `--help` first, then search, then man.
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when do you usually use the man page for a complex command line tool to answer a question you have? (like git, openssl, rsync, curl, etc)
(edit: no need to say "i use --help then man")
@b0rk I'm a "I'd look there first". Some of my reasons:
1. I'm a recent OpenBSD convert.
2. You already mentioned the decline of Web search.
3. The man documentation is current for the *installed version* of the program.
4. My "weirdo" reason is that I find the Web incredibly distracting and addicting. Using man, even if it takes a little longer to get an answer, keeps me from distracting myself, which ultimately saves time.
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i'm very curious about everyone who says "I'd look there first", if I want to figure out how to do something new I think I'll usually google how to do it rather than look at the man page, and then maybe later look at the man page to look up the details
(I've gotten enough of these answers:
- "I like that man pages don't require changing context"
- "with the man page I know I have the right version of the docs")@b0rk if I'm gonna Google something then I need to switch windows and will probably get distracted by whatever other tabs I had open ("oh I'll just respond to this email quick ..."). `man thing` or `thing --help` is right there in the terminal, no extra steps needed.
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i'm very curious about everyone who says "I'd look there first", if I want to figure out how to do something new I think I'll usually google how to do it rather than look at the man page, and then maybe later look at the man page to look up the details
(I've gotten enough of these answers:
- "I like that man pages don't require changing context"
- "with the man page I know I have the right version of the docs")@b0rk For me, the man page (or --help) is more accessible if I'm already on the command line. I'll open the man page, search for a few keywords, and then resort to a web search if needed.
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i'm very curious about everyone who says "I'd look there first", if I want to figure out how to do something new I think I'll usually google how to do it rather than look at the man page, and then maybe later look at the man page to look up the details
(I've gotten enough of these answers:
- "I like that man pages don't require changing context"
- "with the man page I know I have the right version of the docs")@b0rk I'd look there first, because it's immediately available and relatively quick to scan or search for likely strings. That doesn't mean I'll find the answer, though. -h is L1 cache; --help is L2; stfw is RAM
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when do you usually use the man page for a complex command line tool to answer a question you have? (like git, openssl, rsync, curl, etc)
(edit: no need to say "i use --help then man")
@b0rk I start with --help because if it doesn't work, it's unlikely to do anything undesirable either.
Then I try -h.
Then the man page.
If all those fail, a web search.
