So, one thing I said at #FediMTL yesterday is that Fediverse software should ship with the IFTAS DNI list as the default, minimum blocklist.
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@evan I also believe platforms that offer a "flagship" server should make /their/ denylist available at install, after all, they know a lot more about what they're seeing on the platform than anyone else. "We block these servers, you might want to, too'
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@renchap
oooh, I'm very interested in this -
I disagree. The only servers that should be blocked are those that fail to address their users who engage in unwanted tagging. That's harassment/abuse. It drives away users. I could support a list of servers somehow so verified.
But to go further than this is a kind of censorship of content allowed elsewhere on the web. Stuff we basically never stumble on while browsing. Without algos here, it will never be forced on us.
I can easily see posts critical of Israel called antisemitic.
@wjmaggos @evan I disagree. The only servers that should be blocked are those that the operator of the service exposing themselves to the responsibilities and liabilities of hosting user generated content wish to block. Everyone gets to make their decisions, for themselves or for their community. Not me. Not you. Them.
Federation is a privilege, not a right.
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R relay@relay.infosec.exchange shared this topic
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@wjmaggos @evan I disagree. The only servers that should be blocked are those that the operator of the service exposing themselves to the responsibilities and liabilities of hosting user generated content wish to block. Everyone gets to make their decisions, for themselves or for their community. Not me. Not you. Them.
Federation is a privilege, not a right.
I imagine a 90s world with a diversity of browsers that all made their own choices re what sites to render and many fewer people leaving AOL.
EDIT: let me add that this would quickly lead to sites and a few dominant browsers that weren't so strict and we'd lose some decentralization that might have been if people had tried harder to balance expressing all opinions and maybe warning about upsetting stuff instead of requiring a different browser.
IMHO
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@benpate @evan let's talk about labels, I believe any nextgen ingestion should use the shared vocabulary to take in blocks by label https://about.iftas.org/library/shared-vocabulary-labels/
Maybe you want to block CSAM, but don't care about copyright infringement... (This way we could run one list instead of five and you choose the harms you want to block, as everything is labelled)
Yes. This is a fantastic list, and would be a good starting point for anyone publishing their own DNI list.
How do you feel about each publisher defining their own terms? I’m conflicted.
It might be nice to have something truly decentralized, like hashtags, where anything goes.
But there’s probably more utility in some set of standardized codes. It would allow admins to check off the topics they want to follow.
Or maybe there’s a middle ground that could achieve both goals?
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I imagine a 90s world with a diversity of browsers that all made their own choices re what sites to render and many fewer people leaving AOL.
EDIT: let me add that this would quickly lead to sites and a few dominant browsers that weren't so strict and we'd lose some decentralization that might have been if people had tried harder to balance expressing all opinions and maybe warning about upsetting stuff instead of requiring a different browser.
IMHO
@wjmaggos @evan I was there for the 90s. We are not in that. We are in an interconnected world of 40,000 services sending copies of their content to be stored and hosted by their peers. Some of this content is illegal in most countries. Some of it has caused severe harm to people I've worked with as they melt down. Some of it is appropriate for a given community, some of it is not. Some of it is regulated by some of the countries some of these services are located in. Welcome to the 2020s.
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@evan /me whispers "independent"
@iftas That's what I thought!!!
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Yes. This is a fantastic list, and would be a good starting point for anyone publishing their own DNI list.
How do you feel about each publisher defining their own terms? I’m conflicted.
It might be nice to have something truly decentralized, like hashtags, where anything goes.
But there’s probably more utility in some set of standardized codes. It would allow admins to check off the topics they want to follow.
Or maybe there’s a middle ground that could achieve both goals?
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So, you're saying we should use a standardized list? I'm fine with that if we're confident that all of the (realistic) reasons are covered.
So long as "pissed off the mod this one time" isn't a standardized code
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@wjmaggos @evan I was there for the 90s. We are not in that. We are in an interconnected world of 40,000 services sending copies of their content to be stored and hosted by their peers. Some of this content is illegal in most countries. Some of it has caused severe harm to people I've worked with as they melt down. Some of it is appropriate for a given community, some of it is not. Some of it is regulated by some of the countries some of these services are located in. Welcome to the 2020s.
how does what I want conflict with that?
if a number of users on a server are intentionally pushing any kind of junk at people that they do not want (either obviously or after being told), tell the admin and if they do nothing to stop it or prevent it in the future, defederate them. put them on the default fedi block list. that covers the abuse, malware, illegal stuff.
my dispute is on hate speech that is not pushed. it's unnecessary and such debates will keep many off the fedi.
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how does what I want conflict with that?
if a number of users on a server are intentionally pushing any kind of junk at people that they do not want (either obviously or after being told), tell the admin and if they do nothing to stop it or prevent it in the future, defederate them. put them on the default fedi block list. that covers the abuse, malware, illegal stuff.
my dispute is on hate speech that is not pushed. it's unnecessary and such debates will keep many off the fedi.
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I'm asking what problems that you listed above, does my more limited approach fail to deal with? afaict we are only arguing over the hate speech. that wasn't in what you brought up.
and I can't bring any pressure. I can only argue in a public forum for a different approach. just as Evan is arguing for that list being taken as a default block list, I'm agreeing but saying nobody should be on there for that which is not pushed on others.
yes block bad taggers but not bad posters.
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I'm asking what problems that you listed above, does my more limited approach fail to deal with? afaict we are only arguing over the hate speech. that wasn't in what you brought up.
and I can't bring any pressure. I can only argue in a public forum for a different approach. just as Evan is arguing for that list being taken as a default block list, I'm agreeing but saying nobody should be on there for that which is not pushed on others.
yes block bad taggers but not bad posters.
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that's nice to say but it's not true. there is an idea that people have about the fedi just like they had one about the internet in the 90s (perhaps why I brought it up). norms get established and our growth depends on the brand that creates.
our current brand is very HOA and progressive. you know that. it depresses adoption while some love it. no nice conservative thinks they'd be welcome setting up a server. views on gender or ICE might be called hate and get them defederated.
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that's nice to say but it's not true. there is an idea that people have about the fedi just like they had one about the internet in the 90s (perhaps why I brought it up). norms get established and our growth depends on the brand that creates.
our current brand is very HOA and progressive. you know that. it depresses adoption while some love it. no nice conservative thinks they'd be welcome setting up a server. views on gender or ICE might be called hate and get them defederated.
@wjmaggos @evan No, I don't see that. I see that in tightly constrained timelines of mutual follows, but I don't see it on fedi writ large.
We are all prisoners of our own chronological bubbles.
Run a few accounts on a few different servers on a few different platforms with a few different denylists, or none.
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@wjmaggos @evan No, I don't see that. I see that in tightly constrained timelines of mutual follows, but I don't see it on fedi writ large.
We are all prisoners of our own chronological bubbles.
Run a few accounts on a few different servers on a few different platforms with a few different denylists, or none.
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@GavinChait @benpate @evan Thanks to our community, these labels and their definitions are also available in other languages. Special thanks to DTSP for re-releasing these labels as Creative Commons, allowing us to solicit translation volunteers.
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