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  3. My biggest problem with the concept of LLMs, even if they weren’t a giant plagiarism laundering machine and disaster for the environment, is that they introduce so much unpredictability into computing.

My biggest problem with the concept of LLMs, even if they weren’t a giant plagiarism laundering machine and disaster for the environment, is that they introduce so much unpredictability into computing.

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  • emilyenough@hachyderm.ioE emilyenough@hachyderm.io

    My biggest problem with the concept of LLMs, even if they weren’t a giant plagiarism laundering machine and disaster for the environment, is that they introduce so much unpredictability into computing. I became a professional computer toucher because they do exactly what you tell them to. Not always what you wanted, but exactly what you asked for.

    LLMs turn that upside down. They turn a very autistic do-what-you-say, say-what-you-mean commmunication style with the machine into a neurotypical conversation talking around the issue, but never directly addressing the substance of problem.

    In any conversation I have with a person, I’m modeling their understanding of the topic at hand, trying to tailor my communication style to their needs. The same applies to programming languages and frameworks. If you work with a language the way its author intended it goes a lot easier.

    But LLMs don’t have an understanding of the conversation. There is no intent. It’s just a mostly-likely-next-word generator on steroids. You’re trying to give directions to a lossily compressed copy of the entire works of human writing. There is no mind to model, and no predictability to the output.

    If I wanted to spend my time communicating in a superficial, neurotypical style my autistic ass certainly wouldn’t have gone into computering. LLMs are the final act of the finance bros and capitalists wrestling modern technology away from the technically literate proletariat who built it.

    agiletortoise@mastodon.socialA This user is from outside of this forum
    agiletortoise@mastodon.socialA This user is from outside of this forum
    agiletortoise@mastodon.social
    wrote last edited by
    #2

    @EmilyEnough This is a legitimate rant. There’s a lot of quicksand out there right now.

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    • emilyenough@hachyderm.ioE emilyenough@hachyderm.io

      My biggest problem with the concept of LLMs, even if they weren’t a giant plagiarism laundering machine and disaster for the environment, is that they introduce so much unpredictability into computing. I became a professional computer toucher because they do exactly what you tell them to. Not always what you wanted, but exactly what you asked for.

      LLMs turn that upside down. They turn a very autistic do-what-you-say, say-what-you-mean commmunication style with the machine into a neurotypical conversation talking around the issue, but never directly addressing the substance of problem.

      In any conversation I have with a person, I’m modeling their understanding of the topic at hand, trying to tailor my communication style to their needs. The same applies to programming languages and frameworks. If you work with a language the way its author intended it goes a lot easier.

      But LLMs don’t have an understanding of the conversation. There is no intent. It’s just a mostly-likely-next-word generator on steroids. You’re trying to give directions to a lossily compressed copy of the entire works of human writing. There is no mind to model, and no predictability to the output.

      If I wanted to spend my time communicating in a superficial, neurotypical style my autistic ass certainly wouldn’t have gone into computering. LLMs are the final act of the finance bros and capitalists wrestling modern technology away from the technically literate proletariat who built it.

      joscelyntransient@chaosfem.twJ This user is from outside of this forum
      joscelyntransient@chaosfem.twJ This user is from outside of this forum
      joscelyntransient@chaosfem.tw
      wrote last edited by
      #3

      @EmilyEnough as a non-autistic person, they are also horrible at the other communication styles, since those require comprehension and intuition. Like, I can’t read what an LLM is getting at because it’s not getting at anything. It’s a parlor trick at best, with no memory and no real relationship with me.

      And yeah, the whole point of computers was to have something more dependable and predictable than human capacities, especially in…computing. Like, it’s almost impressive to make a computer bad at computing.

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      • emilyenough@hachyderm.ioE emilyenough@hachyderm.io

        My biggest problem with the concept of LLMs, even if they weren’t a giant plagiarism laundering machine and disaster for the environment, is that they introduce so much unpredictability into computing. I became a professional computer toucher because they do exactly what you tell them to. Not always what you wanted, but exactly what you asked for.

        LLMs turn that upside down. They turn a very autistic do-what-you-say, say-what-you-mean commmunication style with the machine into a neurotypical conversation talking around the issue, but never directly addressing the substance of problem.

        In any conversation I have with a person, I’m modeling their understanding of the topic at hand, trying to tailor my communication style to their needs. The same applies to programming languages and frameworks. If you work with a language the way its author intended it goes a lot easier.

        But LLMs don’t have an understanding of the conversation. There is no intent. It’s just a mostly-likely-next-word generator on steroids. You’re trying to give directions to a lossily compressed copy of the entire works of human writing. There is no mind to model, and no predictability to the output.

        If I wanted to spend my time communicating in a superficial, neurotypical style my autistic ass certainly wouldn’t have gone into computering. LLMs are the final act of the finance bros and capitalists wrestling modern technology away from the technically literate proletariat who built it.

        minego@pdx.socialM This user is from outside of this forum
        minego@pdx.socialM This user is from outside of this forum
        minego@pdx.social
        wrote last edited by
        #4

        @EmilyEnough I want to boost this a thousand times. This is so well written. I've wanted to express this for so long, but hadn't found the words. Thank you.

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        • emilyenough@hachyderm.ioE emilyenough@hachyderm.io

          My biggest problem with the concept of LLMs, even if they weren’t a giant plagiarism laundering machine and disaster for the environment, is that they introduce so much unpredictability into computing. I became a professional computer toucher because they do exactly what you tell them to. Not always what you wanted, but exactly what you asked for.

          LLMs turn that upside down. They turn a very autistic do-what-you-say, say-what-you-mean commmunication style with the machine into a neurotypical conversation talking around the issue, but never directly addressing the substance of problem.

          In any conversation I have with a person, I’m modeling their understanding of the topic at hand, trying to tailor my communication style to their needs. The same applies to programming languages and frameworks. If you work with a language the way its author intended it goes a lot easier.

          But LLMs don’t have an understanding of the conversation. There is no intent. It’s just a mostly-likely-next-word generator on steroids. You’re trying to give directions to a lossily compressed copy of the entire works of human writing. There is no mind to model, and no predictability to the output.

          If I wanted to spend my time communicating in a superficial, neurotypical style my autistic ass certainly wouldn’t have gone into computering. LLMs are the final act of the finance bros and capitalists wrestling modern technology away from the technically literate proletariat who built it.

          ? Offline
          ? Offline
          Guest
          wrote last edited by
          #5

          @EmilyEnough Wow, I have thought a lot about how coding LLMs are antithetical to my own OCD tendencies that want everything to be built and formatted in a very specific way (i.e. the right way), but had not considered how terrible the interface would be for folks who prefer not to have to process information conversationally.

          I would love to read an entire book or series of articles about how LLMs as an interface enforce neurotypical modes of communication on neurodiverse people.

          annehargreaves@ioc.exchangeA gourd@indiepocalypse.socialG 2 Replies Last reply
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          • emilyenough@hachyderm.ioE emilyenough@hachyderm.io

            My biggest problem with the concept of LLMs, even if they weren’t a giant plagiarism laundering machine and disaster for the environment, is that they introduce so much unpredictability into computing. I became a professional computer toucher because they do exactly what you tell them to. Not always what you wanted, but exactly what you asked for.

            LLMs turn that upside down. They turn a very autistic do-what-you-say, say-what-you-mean commmunication style with the machine into a neurotypical conversation talking around the issue, but never directly addressing the substance of problem.

            In any conversation I have with a person, I’m modeling their understanding of the topic at hand, trying to tailor my communication style to their needs. The same applies to programming languages and frameworks. If you work with a language the way its author intended it goes a lot easier.

            But LLMs don’t have an understanding of the conversation. There is no intent. It’s just a mostly-likely-next-word generator on steroids. You’re trying to give directions to a lossily compressed copy of the entire works of human writing. There is no mind to model, and no predictability to the output.

            If I wanted to spend my time communicating in a superficial, neurotypical style my autistic ass certainly wouldn’t have gone into computering. LLMs are the final act of the finance bros and capitalists wrestling modern technology away from the technically literate proletariat who built it.

            dragonfi@social.jsteuernagel.deD This user is from outside of this forum
            dragonfi@social.jsteuernagel.deD This user is from outside of this forum
            dragonfi@social.jsteuernagel.de
            wrote last edited by
            #6

            @EmilyEnough

            plagiarism laundering machine

            Never thought about it like this, but it is indeed similar to alaundering.

            You’re trying to give directions to a lossily compressed copy of the entire works of human writing.

            This line sums up the futility extremely well.

            neoist@hub.netzgemeinde.euN 1 Reply Last reply
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            • emilyenough@hachyderm.ioE emilyenough@hachyderm.io

              My biggest problem with the concept of LLMs, even if they weren’t a giant plagiarism laundering machine and disaster for the environment, is that they introduce so much unpredictability into computing. I became a professional computer toucher because they do exactly what you tell them to. Not always what you wanted, but exactly what you asked for.

              LLMs turn that upside down. They turn a very autistic do-what-you-say, say-what-you-mean commmunication style with the machine into a neurotypical conversation talking around the issue, but never directly addressing the substance of problem.

              In any conversation I have with a person, I’m modeling their understanding of the topic at hand, trying to tailor my communication style to their needs. The same applies to programming languages and frameworks. If you work with a language the way its author intended it goes a lot easier.

              But LLMs don’t have an understanding of the conversation. There is no intent. It’s just a mostly-likely-next-word generator on steroids. You’re trying to give directions to a lossily compressed copy of the entire works of human writing. There is no mind to model, and no predictability to the output.

              If I wanted to spend my time communicating in a superficial, neurotypical style my autistic ass certainly wouldn’t have gone into computering. LLMs are the final act of the finance bros and capitalists wrestling modern technology away from the technically literate proletariat who built it.

              netzhexe@chaos.socialN This user is from outside of this forum
              netzhexe@chaos.socialN This user is from outside of this forum
              netzhexe@chaos.social
              wrote last edited by
              #7

              @EmilyEnough THIS oh my GODDESS 🤯 🙏🏼

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              • emilyenough@hachyderm.ioE emilyenough@hachyderm.io

                My biggest problem with the concept of LLMs, even if they weren’t a giant plagiarism laundering machine and disaster for the environment, is that they introduce so much unpredictability into computing. I became a professional computer toucher because they do exactly what you tell them to. Not always what you wanted, but exactly what you asked for.

                LLMs turn that upside down. They turn a very autistic do-what-you-say, say-what-you-mean commmunication style with the machine into a neurotypical conversation talking around the issue, but never directly addressing the substance of problem.

                In any conversation I have with a person, I’m modeling their understanding of the topic at hand, trying to tailor my communication style to their needs. The same applies to programming languages and frameworks. If you work with a language the way its author intended it goes a lot easier.

                But LLMs don’t have an understanding of the conversation. There is no intent. It’s just a mostly-likely-next-word generator on steroids. You’re trying to give directions to a lossily compressed copy of the entire works of human writing. There is no mind to model, and no predictability to the output.

                If I wanted to spend my time communicating in a superficial, neurotypical style my autistic ass certainly wouldn’t have gone into computering. LLMs are the final act of the finance bros and capitalists wrestling modern technology away from the technically literate proletariat who built it.

                timwardcam@c.imT This user is from outside of this forum
                timwardcam@c.imT This user is from outside of this forum
                timwardcam@c.im
                wrote last edited by
                #8

                @EmilyEnough "I became a professional computer toucher because they do exactly what you tell them to. Not always what you wanted, but exactly what you asked for."

                In the 1970s, yes, when you wrote every single byte of code in the machine and could watch every bus cycle on a logic analyser.

                I reckon the rot set in long before LLMs - I reckon it started with on-chip cache, so you could no longer see how each instruction operated through each clock cycle, because some instructions no longer needed to touch the bus at all.

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                • emilyenough@hachyderm.ioE emilyenough@hachyderm.io

                  My biggest problem with the concept of LLMs, even if they weren’t a giant plagiarism laundering machine and disaster for the environment, is that they introduce so much unpredictability into computing. I became a professional computer toucher because they do exactly what you tell them to. Not always what you wanted, but exactly what you asked for.

                  LLMs turn that upside down. They turn a very autistic do-what-you-say, say-what-you-mean commmunication style with the machine into a neurotypical conversation talking around the issue, but never directly addressing the substance of problem.

                  In any conversation I have with a person, I’m modeling their understanding of the topic at hand, trying to tailor my communication style to their needs. The same applies to programming languages and frameworks. If you work with a language the way its author intended it goes a lot easier.

                  But LLMs don’t have an understanding of the conversation. There is no intent. It’s just a mostly-likely-next-word generator on steroids. You’re trying to give directions to a lossily compressed copy of the entire works of human writing. There is no mind to model, and no predictability to the output.

                  If I wanted to spend my time communicating in a superficial, neurotypical style my autistic ass certainly wouldn’t have gone into computering. LLMs are the final act of the finance bros and capitalists wrestling modern technology away from the technically literate proletariat who built it.

                  netraven@hear-me.socialN This user is from outside of this forum
                  netraven@hear-me.socialN This user is from outside of this forum
                  netraven@hear-me.social
                  wrote last edited by
                  #9

                  @EmilyEnough there's no saving people, you know.

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                  • emilyenough@hachyderm.ioE emilyenough@hachyderm.io

                    My biggest problem with the concept of LLMs, even if they weren’t a giant plagiarism laundering machine and disaster for the environment, is that they introduce so much unpredictability into computing. I became a professional computer toucher because they do exactly what you tell them to. Not always what you wanted, but exactly what you asked for.

                    LLMs turn that upside down. They turn a very autistic do-what-you-say, say-what-you-mean commmunication style with the machine into a neurotypical conversation talking around the issue, but never directly addressing the substance of problem.

                    In any conversation I have with a person, I’m modeling their understanding of the topic at hand, trying to tailor my communication style to their needs. The same applies to programming languages and frameworks. If you work with a language the way its author intended it goes a lot easier.

                    But LLMs don’t have an understanding of the conversation. There is no intent. It’s just a mostly-likely-next-word generator on steroids. You’re trying to give directions to a lossily compressed copy of the entire works of human writing. There is no mind to model, and no predictability to the output.

                    If I wanted to spend my time communicating in a superficial, neurotypical style my autistic ass certainly wouldn’t have gone into computering. LLMs are the final act of the finance bros and capitalists wrestling modern technology away from the technically literate proletariat who built it.

                    hosford42@techhub.socialH This user is from outside of this forum
                    hosford42@techhub.socialH This user is from outside of this forum
                    hosford42@techhub.social
                    wrote last edited by
                    #10

                    @EmilyEnough "squishy" computing

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                    • emilyenough@hachyderm.ioE emilyenough@hachyderm.io

                      My biggest problem with the concept of LLMs, even if they weren’t a giant plagiarism laundering machine and disaster for the environment, is that they introduce so much unpredictability into computing. I became a professional computer toucher because they do exactly what you tell them to. Not always what you wanted, but exactly what you asked for.

                      LLMs turn that upside down. They turn a very autistic do-what-you-say, say-what-you-mean commmunication style with the machine into a neurotypical conversation talking around the issue, but never directly addressing the substance of problem.

                      In any conversation I have with a person, I’m modeling their understanding of the topic at hand, trying to tailor my communication style to their needs. The same applies to programming languages and frameworks. If you work with a language the way its author intended it goes a lot easier.

                      But LLMs don’t have an understanding of the conversation. There is no intent. It’s just a mostly-likely-next-word generator on steroids. You’re trying to give directions to a lossily compressed copy of the entire works of human writing. There is no mind to model, and no predictability to the output.

                      If I wanted to spend my time communicating in a superficial, neurotypical style my autistic ass certainly wouldn’t have gone into computering. LLMs are the final act of the finance bros and capitalists wrestling modern technology away from the technically literate proletariat who built it.

                      longplay_games@mastodon.gamedev.placeL This user is from outside of this forum
                      longplay_games@mastodon.gamedev.placeL This user is from outside of this forum
                      longplay_games@mastodon.gamedev.place
                      wrote last edited by
                      #11

                      @EmilyEnough The one and only reason I ever got into computers back in the late 70s/early 80s was exactly this.

                      It was so refreshing to work with something that had a super specific and repeatable instruction set, where the *vast* majority of issues could be nailed down quite precisely to something I could control.

                      If I didn't like this sort of work, I wouldn't do it.

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                      • emilyenough@hachyderm.ioE emilyenough@hachyderm.io

                        My biggest problem with the concept of LLMs, even if they weren’t a giant plagiarism laundering machine and disaster for the environment, is that they introduce so much unpredictability into computing. I became a professional computer toucher because they do exactly what you tell them to. Not always what you wanted, but exactly what you asked for.

                        LLMs turn that upside down. They turn a very autistic do-what-you-say, say-what-you-mean commmunication style with the machine into a neurotypical conversation talking around the issue, but never directly addressing the substance of problem.

                        In any conversation I have with a person, I’m modeling their understanding of the topic at hand, trying to tailor my communication style to their needs. The same applies to programming languages and frameworks. If you work with a language the way its author intended it goes a lot easier.

                        But LLMs don’t have an understanding of the conversation. There is no intent. It’s just a mostly-likely-next-word generator on steroids. You’re trying to give directions to a lossily compressed copy of the entire works of human writing. There is no mind to model, and no predictability to the output.

                        If I wanted to spend my time communicating in a superficial, neurotypical style my autistic ass certainly wouldn’t have gone into computering. LLMs are the final act of the finance bros and capitalists wrestling modern technology away from the technically literate proletariat who built it.

                        haui@mastodon.giftedmc.comH This user is from outside of this forum
                        haui@mastodon.giftedmc.comH This user is from outside of this forum
                        haui@mastodon.giftedmc.com
                        wrote last edited by
                        #12

                        @EmilyEnough
                        The most interesting detail for my autistic brain is that the professional computertouchers like myself are technically proletatians but are paid like the managerial class (also called worker aristocracy).

                        So what we - imho - are witnessing is the proletarization of the computer workers. Like other jobs that used to be well paid before they got eliminated/recuperated.

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                        • ? Guest

                          @EmilyEnough Wow, I have thought a lot about how coding LLMs are antithetical to my own OCD tendencies that want everything to be built and formatted in a very specific way (i.e. the right way), but had not considered how terrible the interface would be for folks who prefer not to have to process information conversationally.

                          I would love to read an entire book or series of articles about how LLMs as an interface enforce neurotypical modes of communication on neurodiverse people.

                          annehargreaves@ioc.exchangeA This user is from outside of this forum
                          annehargreaves@ioc.exchangeA This user is from outside of this forum
                          annehargreaves@ioc.exchange
                          wrote last edited by
                          #13

                          @mikemccaffrey @EmilyEnough Good point.

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                          • emilyenough@hachyderm.ioE emilyenough@hachyderm.io

                            My biggest problem with the concept of LLMs, even if they weren’t a giant plagiarism laundering machine and disaster for the environment, is that they introduce so much unpredictability into computing. I became a professional computer toucher because they do exactly what you tell them to. Not always what you wanted, but exactly what you asked for.

                            LLMs turn that upside down. They turn a very autistic do-what-you-say, say-what-you-mean commmunication style with the machine into a neurotypical conversation talking around the issue, but never directly addressing the substance of problem.

                            In any conversation I have with a person, I’m modeling their understanding of the topic at hand, trying to tailor my communication style to their needs. The same applies to programming languages and frameworks. If you work with a language the way its author intended it goes a lot easier.

                            But LLMs don’t have an understanding of the conversation. There is no intent. It’s just a mostly-likely-next-word generator on steroids. You’re trying to give directions to a lossily compressed copy of the entire works of human writing. There is no mind to model, and no predictability to the output.

                            If I wanted to spend my time communicating in a superficial, neurotypical style my autistic ass certainly wouldn’t have gone into computering. LLMs are the final act of the finance bros and capitalists wrestling modern technology away from the technically literate proletariat who built it.

                            jzakotnik@mastodon.socialJ This user is from outside of this forum
                            jzakotnik@mastodon.socialJ This user is from outside of this forum
                            jzakotnik@mastodon.social
                            wrote last edited by
                            #14

                            @EmilyEnough very interesting observation, thanks a lot. I haven’t perceived it that way - I used to work a lot with probabilistic models, simulated annealing and genetic algorithms and in that case the computer works entirely deterministic but the result is always different. So I lost my expectation to a deterministic result long time ago 😉

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                            • emilyenough@hachyderm.ioE emilyenough@hachyderm.io

                              My biggest problem with the concept of LLMs, even if they weren’t a giant plagiarism laundering machine and disaster for the environment, is that they introduce so much unpredictability into computing. I became a professional computer toucher because they do exactly what you tell them to. Not always what you wanted, but exactly what you asked for.

                              LLMs turn that upside down. They turn a very autistic do-what-you-say, say-what-you-mean commmunication style with the machine into a neurotypical conversation talking around the issue, but never directly addressing the substance of problem.

                              In any conversation I have with a person, I’m modeling their understanding of the topic at hand, trying to tailor my communication style to their needs. The same applies to programming languages and frameworks. If you work with a language the way its author intended it goes a lot easier.

                              But LLMs don’t have an understanding of the conversation. There is no intent. It’s just a mostly-likely-next-word generator on steroids. You’re trying to give directions to a lossily compressed copy of the entire works of human writing. There is no mind to model, and no predictability to the output.

                              If I wanted to spend my time communicating in a superficial, neurotypical style my autistic ass certainly wouldn’t have gone into computering. LLMs are the final act of the finance bros and capitalists wrestling modern technology away from the technically literate proletariat who built it.

                              cybervegan@autistics.lifeC This user is from outside of this forum
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                              cybervegan@autistics.life
                              wrote last edited by
                              #15

                              @EmilyEnough Very astute and exactly my experience too - I went into computing for the same kinds of reasons and as you say LLMs break that. Thank you for expressing it so clearly.

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                              • emilyenough@hachyderm.ioE emilyenough@hachyderm.io

                                My biggest problem with the concept of LLMs, even if they weren’t a giant plagiarism laundering machine and disaster for the environment, is that they introduce so much unpredictability into computing. I became a professional computer toucher because they do exactly what you tell them to. Not always what you wanted, but exactly what you asked for.

                                LLMs turn that upside down. They turn a very autistic do-what-you-say, say-what-you-mean commmunication style with the machine into a neurotypical conversation talking around the issue, but never directly addressing the substance of problem.

                                In any conversation I have with a person, I’m modeling their understanding of the topic at hand, trying to tailor my communication style to their needs. The same applies to programming languages and frameworks. If you work with a language the way its author intended it goes a lot easier.

                                But LLMs don’t have an understanding of the conversation. There is no intent. It’s just a mostly-likely-next-word generator on steroids. You’re trying to give directions to a lossily compressed copy of the entire works of human writing. There is no mind to model, and no predictability to the output.

                                If I wanted to spend my time communicating in a superficial, neurotypical style my autistic ass certainly wouldn’t have gone into computering. LLMs are the final act of the finance bros and capitalists wrestling modern technology away from the technically literate proletariat who built it.

                                evildrganymede@wargamers.socialE This user is from outside of this forum
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                                evildrganymede@wargamers.social
                                wrote last edited by
                                #16

                                @EmilyEnough I think you're absolutely correct on this. Yet another reason why we need to find a way to irrevocably destroy this abomination.

                                But also it's not just the style of "communication" that these algorithms are pretending to do, it's that you cannot trust that their output is even correct because they have no understanding of what they are "saying". They could be "hallucinating" complete nonsense but they'll output it in an authoritative way and may even make up references that don't exist. They're 100% bullshit generators (it's even been scientifically proven).

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                                • uriel@x.keinpfusch.netU This user is from outside of this forum
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                                  uriel@x.keinpfusch.net
                                  wrote last edited by
                                  #17

                                  @EmilyEnough

                                  My biggest problem with the concept of LLMs, even if they weren’t a giant plagiarism laundering machine

                                  Also known as “training”. When people are trained in art, they don’t reinvent art from scratch. This is why you can’t really sue an LLM for plagiarism: you can’t even identify specific victims in the first place.

                                  and disaster for the environment,

                                  Nope. The whole IT sector uses about 3–5% of global electricity, so poor home insulation is a much bigger problem overall.

                                  is that they introduce so much unpredictability into computing.

                                  We call it a statistical method, or more precisely a stochastic system. Because, to a large extent, human behaviour itself can be modelled as a stochastic process.

                                  If I wanted to spend my time communicating in a superficial, neurotypical style my autistic ass certainly wouldn’t have gone into computering.

                                  The problems you face when communicating with LLMs are the same ones you face when communicating with people, because statistically speaking an LLM mimics how people communicate.

                                  This is why computer‑mediated communication was used before, and is still used, when computers were not trying to mimic humans.

                                  The core issue is that mimicking humans reproduces the same communication problems people already have with one another; and the “unpredictability” of the other party is nothing new in human interaction.

                                  LLMs mimic humans, so the problems you encounter with LLMs are the same problems you encounter with humans. The point is that you consider it normal when you face exactly the same issues with other people.

                                  magitweeter@mastodon.socialM pglpm@c.imP greenskyoverme@ohai.socialG 3 Replies Last reply
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                                  • emilyenough@hachyderm.ioE emilyenough@hachyderm.io

                                    My biggest problem with the concept of LLMs, even if they weren’t a giant plagiarism laundering machine and disaster for the environment, is that they introduce so much unpredictability into computing. I became a professional computer toucher because they do exactly what you tell them to. Not always what you wanted, but exactly what you asked for.

                                    LLMs turn that upside down. They turn a very autistic do-what-you-say, say-what-you-mean commmunication style with the machine into a neurotypical conversation talking around the issue, but never directly addressing the substance of problem.

                                    In any conversation I have with a person, I’m modeling their understanding of the topic at hand, trying to tailor my communication style to their needs. The same applies to programming languages and frameworks. If you work with a language the way its author intended it goes a lot easier.

                                    But LLMs don’t have an understanding of the conversation. There is no intent. It’s just a mostly-likely-next-word generator on steroids. You’re trying to give directions to a lossily compressed copy of the entire works of human writing. There is no mind to model, and no predictability to the output.

                                    If I wanted to spend my time communicating in a superficial, neurotypical style my autistic ass certainly wouldn’t have gone into computering. LLMs are the final act of the finance bros and capitalists wrestling modern technology away from the technically literate proletariat who built it.

                                    monkee@chaos.socialM This user is from outside of this forum
                                    monkee@chaos.socialM This user is from outside of this forum
                                    monkee@chaos.social
                                    wrote last edited by
                                    #18

                                    @EmilyEnough

                                    "They turn a very autistic do-what-you-say, say-what-you-mean commmunication style with the machine into a neurotypical conversation talking around the issue, but never directly addressing the substance of problem."

                                    OMG - That's perfect. Maybe also explains why everyone loves them that much. 🤨

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                                    • uriel@x.keinpfusch.netU uriel@x.keinpfusch.net

                                      @EmilyEnough

                                      My biggest problem with the concept of LLMs, even if they weren’t a giant plagiarism laundering machine

                                      Also known as “training”. When people are trained in art, they don’t reinvent art from scratch. This is why you can’t really sue an LLM for plagiarism: you can’t even identify specific victims in the first place.

                                      and disaster for the environment,

                                      Nope. The whole IT sector uses about 3–5% of global electricity, so poor home insulation is a much bigger problem overall.

                                      is that they introduce so much unpredictability into computing.

                                      We call it a statistical method, or more precisely a stochastic system. Because, to a large extent, human behaviour itself can be modelled as a stochastic process.

                                      If I wanted to spend my time communicating in a superficial, neurotypical style my autistic ass certainly wouldn’t have gone into computering.

                                      The problems you face when communicating with LLMs are the same ones you face when communicating with people, because statistically speaking an LLM mimics how people communicate.

                                      This is why computer‑mediated communication was used before, and is still used, when computers were not trying to mimic humans.

                                      The core issue is that mimicking humans reproduces the same communication problems people already have with one another; and the “unpredictability” of the other party is nothing new in human interaction.

                                      LLMs mimic humans, so the problems you encounter with LLMs are the same problems you encounter with humans. The point is that you consider it normal when you face exactly the same issues with other people.

                                      magitweeter@mastodon.socialM This user is from outside of this forum
                                      magitweeter@mastodon.socialM This user is from outside of this forum
                                      magitweeter@mastodon.social
                                      wrote last edited by
                                      #19

                                      @uriel Way to miss the point

                                      @EmilyEnough

                                      uriel@x.keinpfusch.netU 1 Reply Last reply
                                      0
                                      • magitweeter@mastodon.socialM magitweeter@mastodon.social

                                        @uriel Way to miss the point

                                        @EmilyEnough

                                        uriel@x.keinpfusch.netU This user is from outside of this forum
                                        uriel@x.keinpfusch.netU This user is from outside of this forum
                                        uriel@x.keinpfusch.net
                                        wrote last edited by
                                        #20

                                        @magitweeter @EmilyEnough

                                        Way to miss the point

                                        whatever.

                                        1 Reply Last reply
                                        0
                                        • uriel@x.keinpfusch.netU uriel@x.keinpfusch.net

                                          @EmilyEnough

                                          My biggest problem with the concept of LLMs, even if they weren’t a giant plagiarism laundering machine

                                          Also known as “training”. When people are trained in art, they don’t reinvent art from scratch. This is why you can’t really sue an LLM for plagiarism: you can’t even identify specific victims in the first place.

                                          and disaster for the environment,

                                          Nope. The whole IT sector uses about 3–5% of global electricity, so poor home insulation is a much bigger problem overall.

                                          is that they introduce so much unpredictability into computing.

                                          We call it a statistical method, or more precisely a stochastic system. Because, to a large extent, human behaviour itself can be modelled as a stochastic process.

                                          If I wanted to spend my time communicating in a superficial, neurotypical style my autistic ass certainly wouldn’t have gone into computering.

                                          The problems you face when communicating with LLMs are the same ones you face when communicating with people, because statistically speaking an LLM mimics how people communicate.

                                          This is why computer‑mediated communication was used before, and is still used, when computers were not trying to mimic humans.

                                          The core issue is that mimicking humans reproduces the same communication problems people already have with one another; and the “unpredictability” of the other party is nothing new in human interaction.

                                          LLMs mimic humans, so the problems you encounter with LLMs are the same problems you encounter with humans. The point is that you consider it normal when you face exactly the same issues with other people.

                                          pglpm@c.imP This user is from outside of this forum
                                          pglpm@c.imP This user is from outside of this forum
                                          pglpm@c.im
                                          wrote last edited by
                                          #21

                                          @uriel @EmilyEnough

                                          > Nope. The whole IT sector uses about 3–5% of global electricity, so poor home insulation is a much bigger problem overall.

                                          Source?

                                          > We call it a statistical method, or more precisely a stochastic system. Because, to a large extent, human behaviour itself can be modelled as a stochastic process.

                                          Source? In fact this is false. Human behaviour includes more than a stochastic process, even though it may adopt stochastic heuristics to speed up some computational parts. This is also why LLMs are technically speaking *not* AI. An AI includes, as human reasoning does, an internal world model and the basic set of Boolean probability-logic rules. See for instance Russell & Norvig's *Artificial Intelligence: A Modern Approach* (http://aima.cs.berkeley.edu/global-index.html), or Pearl's older *Probabilistic Reasoning in Intelligent Systems* (https://doi.org/10.1016/C2009-0-27609-4). LLMs are, instead, just Markov chains (https://doi.org/10.48550/arXiv.2410.02724). A modern robot vacuum cleaner is more "AI" than an LLM.

                                          This is also the reason why the larger the software project you apply an LLM to, the more likely the failure. Such kind of application requires larger and larger string correlations, which are therefore more and more uncertain and fault-prone, and these faults are therefore also more difficult to spot. Such kind of applications may also require new or innovative kinds of solution, which again are less likely to be stumbled upon by an LLM.

                                          > The problems you face when communicating with LLMs are the same ones you face when communicating with people, because statistically speaking an LLM mimics how people communicate.

                                          No, because humans, and also *proper AI*, have a "logic engine" underneath. It may require some effort to bring the logic engine to the fore instead of poor heuristics, but it can be done (related: Kahneman's *Thinking, Fast and Slow*, and the research cited there). With LLM it can't be done because there's no logic engine at all there.

                                          uriel@x.keinpfusch.netU 1 Reply Last reply
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