Subject: Information processing in autism.
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@x0 @compost_funeral @KatyElphinstone When I was much younger, high school or so, I spent a lot of time in IRC where I would regularly keep up with 5 conversations at once and even split threads to have two conversations with one person.
I don't think I can do that anymore but I couldn't say how or why that changed.
@gooba42 @compost_funeral @KatyElphinstone I can have two conversations with one person, verbally or textually, and I can maintain multiple text conversations in general so long as the actual rate of communication isn't ridiculously fast and that the emotional context of all the conversations in question is relatively similar. Having a conversation where I'm very emotionally involved and sad with one person and having a chipper conversation with someone else starts running into context switching overhead, what I saw one website call monotropic split, I think? Effort required to wrench brain from one path to another. Meanwhile, I cannot easily maintain an ongoing voice conversation while doing that, and if I'm on a voice chat platform and people are talking even in the background it disrupts my ability to write and read, but again, screen reader.
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@gooba42 @compost_funeral @KatyElphinstone I can have two conversations with one person, verbally or textually, and I can maintain multiple text conversations in general so long as the actual rate of communication isn't ridiculously fast and that the emotional context of all the conversations in question is relatively similar. Having a conversation where I'm very emotionally involved and sad with one person and having a chipper conversation with someone else starts running into context switching overhead, what I saw one website call monotropic split, I think? Effort required to wrench brain from one path to another. Meanwhile, I cannot easily maintain an ongoing voice conversation while doing that, and if I'm on a voice chat platform and people are talking even in the background it disrupts my ability to write and read, but again, screen reader.
@gooba42 @compost_funeral @KatyElphinstone The multiple conversations with one person often ends up interleaved for me in the same thread, but that might be a platform limitation really, since we're talking about typical DMs where there aren't threads or they're too clunky to use. When doing so it's usually easy enough for me to pick out which of the ongoing threads a given message belongs to, and typically the conversations differ enough that I assume it is for the other, unless someone starts responding with ambiguous answers, like just yes or no when multiple questions were asked, at which point I'll clarify did you mean in response to this or this. Having a system that can mark what message you are replying to there helps disambiguate that. Pretty sure I've maintained up to 5 parallel threads of conversation with a person once.
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@gooba42 @compost_funeral @KatyElphinstone The multiple conversations with one person often ends up interleaved for me in the same thread, but that might be a platform limitation really, since we're talking about typical DMs where there aren't threads or they're too clunky to use. When doing so it's usually easy enough for me to pick out which of the ongoing threads a given message belongs to, and typically the conversations differ enough that I assume it is for the other, unless someone starts responding with ambiguous answers, like just yes or no when multiple questions were asked, at which point I'll clarify did you mean in response to this or this. Having a system that can mark what message you are replying to there helps disambiguate that. Pretty sure I've maintained up to 5 parallel threads of conversation with a person once.
@gooba42 @compost_funeral @KatyElphinstone It started as one or two conversations but sort of branched into deeper rabbit holes in parallel, and later collapsed into less streams. Somehow I didn't run into serious bouncy ball brain while doing that. If neurotypicals are so obsessed with multitasking, how come they don't tend to communicate like that? They'll also maintain plenty of parallel text conversations I think, but I'm unsure how many will do parallel conversations streams with one person. Why change the subject? Just add a subject!
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@gooba42 @compost_funeral @KatyElphinstone I can have two conversations with one person, verbally or textually, and I can maintain multiple text conversations in general so long as the actual rate of communication isn't ridiculously fast and that the emotional context of all the conversations in question is relatively similar. Having a conversation where I'm very emotionally involved and sad with one person and having a chipper conversation with someone else starts running into context switching overhead, what I saw one website call monotropic split, I think? Effort required to wrench brain from one path to another. Meanwhile, I cannot easily maintain an ongoing voice conversation while doing that, and if I'm on a voice chat platform and people are talking even in the background it disrupts my ability to write and read, but again, screen reader.
@x0 @compost_funeral @KatyElphinstone Now I'm wondering if there's maybe a split between discretionary bandwidth and dedicated bandwidth.
Auditory gets X amount of bandwidth until you're paying attention to it, then some of the discretionary bandwidth gets reallocated.
With ADHD in the mix, it's less like missing stuff and more like that discretionary bandwidth isn't tacked down. "I heard it but couldn't interpret it" is a thing that happens for me.
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@x0 @compost_funeral @KatyElphinstone Now I'm wondering if there's maybe a split between discretionary bandwidth and dedicated bandwidth.
Auditory gets X amount of bandwidth until you're paying attention to it, then some of the discretionary bandwidth gets reallocated.
With ADHD in the mix, it's less like missing stuff and more like that discretionary bandwidth isn't tacked down. "I heard it but couldn't interpret it" is a thing that happens for me.
@gooba42 @compost_funeral @KatyElphinstone I also likely have some sort of auditory processing disorder, I can handle one (simple) background element and one forground element. Ambient music might actually be doable, but I prefer EDM and dubstep and that isn't the kind of music that lends itself to background. I haven't tried jazz because as a musician I'll start focusing on the playing.
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@gooba42 @compost_funeral @KatyElphinstone I also likely have some sort of auditory processing disorder, I can handle one (simple) background element and one forground element. Ambient music might actually be doable, but I prefer EDM and dubstep and that isn't the kind of music that lends itself to background. I haven't tried jazz because as a musician I'll start focusing on the playing.
@gooba42 @compost_funeral @KatyElphinstone Sorry, does anyone here want to be removed from the thread? There's a third person that got pulled in somehow and IDK how that even happened, boost maybe? And Katy's mentions are probably getting blown up by far more than just me.
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@KatyElphinstone This sort of goes back to that other idea someone posted in #neurodivergent a while back. The idea was that, mathematically speaking, no one is ’neurotypical’. The existence of several neurologically similar individuals is simply not probable.
Yet there’s this idea of a ”normal” person presenting in every day life. On the surface it looks like that’s a real thing.
That likely means most people masking to some extent.
@jordgubben @KatyElphinstone I think this one's really important too because over time, I think we're narrowing the definition of "normal" to a very specific subset of "neurotypical".
We see chronic depression on the rise because we under-diagnose acute depression related to being a square peg in a round hole of tighter and tighter tolerance over time. Some of us who passed a generation ago are too divergent now based on the definition changing, not us.
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All of this means it can be a) more tiring, and b) more time-consuming for us to move through the world, taking it in.
This can make everyday environments more effortful (more processing load, more filtering required), which can feel more tiring and sometimes slower.
This could also account for why autistic people need a lot of low-stimulus downtime, to recover from it all. Anyone would!
End of thread 🧵
Refs below.
@KatyElphinstone I'm seeing a occupational therapist (who is autistic) and she's been doing a series of screeners for me - sensory sensitivity, emotional disregulation, and executive function. The executive function tests showed significant issues with my working memory, enough that it might otherwise indicate some kind of neurological problem. But she says the results from the other tests, showing very high sensory sensitivity and extreme problems with emotional disregulation as well as high masking explains both the working memory and executive function problems.
She said if my mind was a wall, the foundations of my wall are being eroded by the effort I'm having to make to just stay alert and present despite all the sensory input and overpowering emotions. If I was suffering from, for example, dementia, she'd be seeing "missing bricks all over the wall" and she's not seeing that.
It's been a really interesting process.
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@compost_funeral @x0 @KatyElphinstone I haven't heard this from anybody else but yes! I have to keep my brain from getting bored of work and listening to instrumental or well-known music helps.
Novelty or lyrics generally tend to defeat the purpose and my brain focuses *only* on that input but I can get into a productive groove if I provide just enough non-distracting stimulus.
Doodling or fidgets seem to occupy a similar "keep the distractible monkey mind busy while we do stuff" space.
This is reminding me how I listen to an audiobook whenever I paint or draw.
If I don't, that part of my brain comes along & messes with the process. Makes a mess of the picture (overthinking it, perhaps? Or an incompatible style with that kind of creativity?)
️Need to keep that neocortex occupied. Keep it out of trouble.
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@gooba42 @compost_funeral @KatyElphinstone Sorry, does anyone here want to be removed from the thread? There's a third person that got pulled in somehow and IDK how that even happened, boost maybe? And Katy's mentions are probably getting blown up by far more than just me.
Not at all! I've really enjoyed it. But that was kind of you to think of that 🥰
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@KatyElphinstone I'm seeing a occupational therapist (who is autistic) and she's been doing a series of screeners for me - sensory sensitivity, emotional disregulation, and executive function. The executive function tests showed significant issues with my working memory, enough that it might otherwise indicate some kind of neurological problem. But she says the results from the other tests, showing very high sensory sensitivity and extreme problems with emotional disregulation as well as high masking explains both the working memory and executive function problems.
She said if my mind was a wall, the foundations of my wall are being eroded by the effort I'm having to make to just stay alert and present despite all the sensory input and overpowering emotions. If I was suffering from, for example, dementia, she'd be seeing "missing bricks all over the wall" and she's not seeing that.
It's been a really interesting process.
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@gooba42 @compost_funeral @KatyElphinstone I wonder how viable intensely focusing on, say, reading something while softly petting an animal or interacting with a plushy would work? My mind doesn't handle multiple streams very well, if I'm spending concentration on petting a cat I start to drift on snippets of audio at any normal speed for a blind person though audiobooks are often slow enough by default to not have that problem. I personally know a guy who runs his computer speech at upwards of 600 WPM, has virtual voice conversations with me and others, and is also watching a twitch stream in the background of GDQ or something, all at the same time. Completely baffles me how his brain doesn't melt and how he somehow manages to keep proper attention on everything. My absolute failure to do anything of the sort has resulted in me taking a somewhat negative opinion of neurotypicals who are having an actual conversation with me and are also doing something else at the same time, because I'm under the impression that it compromises their attention, and meanwhile I'm giving them 100% of mine. But my experience with him has had me try and reframe that slightly, or at least I'll look for obvious signs their attention is slipping, like needing me to repeat myself. Hate, hate hate, repeating myself. Especially since I can't guarantee I actually know what all I said! How much am I repeating? A single clause? Or an entire paragraph? It's not as if I draft all my speech ahead of time!
@x0 @gooba42 @compost_funeral @KatyElphinstone
I remember reading a lot about the failure to multitask which ALL human beans suffer, only, some of us notice & care a lot more than others
Don't quote me. I can't site any of this stuff. But, maybe someone out there can talk more intelligently about the energy and time required when shifting focus, and how a great multitasker actually does less in more time than we think
I used to be a great multitasker, til I read too much about it ages ago
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@x0 @gooba42 @compost_funeral @KatyElphinstone
I remember reading a lot about the failure to multitask which ALL human beans suffer, only, some of us notice & care a lot more than others
Don't quote me. I can't site any of this stuff. But, maybe someone out there can talk more intelligently about the energy and time required when shifting focus, and how a great multitasker actually does less in more time than we think
I used to be a great multitasker, til I read too much about it ages ago
@x0 @gooba42 @compost_funeral @KatyElphinstone
This idea, I am referencing (did a quick google search)
In my work, having the ability to juggle and jump between multiple competing tasks is definitely necessary. I wouldn't say I'm necessarily doing my best at any of them though, and boy oh boy they all take longer.
The Myth of Multitasking
Why our brains cannot multitask and how to be more efficient.
Psychology Today (www.psychologytoday.com)
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@compost_funeral @x0 @KatyElphinstone I haven't heard this from anybody else but yes! I have to keep my brain from getting bored of work and listening to instrumental or well-known music helps.
Novelty or lyrics generally tend to defeat the purpose and my brain focuses *only* on that input but I can get into a productive groove if I provide just enough non-distracting stimulus.
Doodling or fidgets seem to occupy a similar "keep the distractible monkey mind busy while we do stuff" space.
@gooba42 @compost_funeral @x0 @KatyElphinstone
I can't have lyrics or TV dialogue anywhere near me if I'm trying to do any reading or focusing. I've rarely heard other people say that. But I also love up-tempo instrumental to help focus.It's also always baffled me that people can listen to a song a hundred times and still not know any of the lyrics. I can't not hear them every time.
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@gooba42 @compost_funeral @x0 @KatyElphinstone
I can't have lyrics or TV dialogue anywhere near me if I'm trying to do any reading or focusing. I've rarely heard other people say that. But I also love up-tempo instrumental to help focus.It's also always baffled me that people can listen to a song a hundred times and still not know any of the lyrics. I can't not hear them every time.
@thecrushedviolet @compost_funeral @x0 @KatyElphinstone Dialogue is special in my brain. I absolutely can't sleep with live or recorded dialogue.
When I'm waking up in the morning, I can surf that "just about asleep" state for quite a while unless somebody injects some words into my brain and then I'm awake whether I like it or not.
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@thecrushedviolet @compost_funeral @x0 @KatyElphinstone Dialogue is special in my brain. I absolutely can't sleep with live or recorded dialogue.
When I'm waking up in the morning, I can surf that "just about asleep" state for quite a while unless somebody injects some words into my brain and then I'm awake whether I like it or not.
@gooba42 @thecrushedviolet @compost_funeral @KatyElphinstone OMG this! Exactly! If I have to think about talking to you, or interpret much, full systems engage to handle dialog processing and it obliterates what I call haze, which is that tiny fuzziness in your head that might indicate you can go back to sleep if you keep resting.
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@gooba42 @thecrushedviolet @compost_funeral @KatyElphinstone OMG this! Exactly! If I have to think about talking to you, or interpret much, full systems engage to handle dialog processing and it obliterates what I call haze, which is that tiny fuzziness in your head that might indicate you can go back to sleep if you keep resting.
@gooba42 @thecrushedviolet @compost_funeral @KatyElphinstone Bright light also obliterates haze and prevents it from forming, which wholesale prevents me from sleeping during the day.
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@jordgubben @KatyElphinstone I think this one's really important too because over time, I think we're narrowing the definition of "normal" to a very specific subset of "neurotypical".
We see chronic depression on the rise because we under-diagnose acute depression related to being a square peg in a round hole of tighter and tighter tolerance over time. Some of us who passed a generation ago are too divergent now based on the definition changing, not us.
@gooba42 @jordgubben @KatyElphinstone
Interesting. My perception is that it has gone in the opposite direction, with much greater recognition and acceptance that many (most?) people don't fit within a classic "neurotypical" round hole. And that both individual well-being/mental health and community cohesiveness are better served by accepting this than by forcing them to mask.
Maybe this is just me...
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