I have a question:Here in Germany we got an acronym: FLINTA.

[transicorn@mastodon.social]

@enbypirate It's interesting but no, not aware of anything quite like it here in the U.S.

Also, apparently this at times involves excluding #TransMen -

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FLINTA*

"FLINTA* specifically refers to the gender identity of individuals"

"Sometimes it is criticized that despite the clear terms, it is not clear who is welcome in these spaces. There are spaces where trans women are welcome, but not trans men, or vice versa."

[symtrkl@anarres.family]

@ics I was today years old when I learned that FLINTA is not a passenger rail line. (In my defense, y'all have a lot of those.)

I propose "queer." Which, given the history of the assimilationist gay rights movement specifically abandoning those who invented that self-descriptor, I am pretty comfortable saying does not include cisgender men. (Cis women can be under the banner so long as they drop the White Feminism and accept that they're not the sole marginalized group.) There's also "GSM," which stands for "gender and sexual minorities," but neither specifically includes cis women like FLINTA seems to; I'm not aware of any term like that in English. I wish we had one, but that would require a level of class solidarity between cis women and queers that I've never observed at the scale of political movements, only at the individual level. (And honestly I don't trust the fact that most of these Wyoming fash are polite to my face because I pass a little.)
@kiki @enbypirate

[ics@tau-ceti.space]

@SymTrkl Honestly, I don't really care. FLINTA is a bit of a difficult topic for me (especially when they use Frau* with an asterisk at the end --- no, don't ask ).

I don't really feel very welcome there as it feels (in reality) to much oriented towards women or "always feminine", which is not who or what I am.

So far I haven't felt really well in those circles. Queer is where I feel really welcome and well, unless it is "lesbisch-queer" (lesbian-queer) or "schwul-queer" (gay-queer, as in "gay men")

@enbypirate

[doppelgrau@anarres.family]

@enbypirate Besides the translation question: I have one problem with that label, that too often the "INTA"-Part isn't seriously considered. Sure, not always, but there is a serious risk that someone just replaced "Frauen" with "FLINTA" -since "that's the modern phrasing" -without considering the implications of this abbreviation for the "invited" audience.
So it can be used in a F*(Frauen/female and people who mostly align with it) way, so "too masc presenting" INTA people often feel unwelcome or are even excluded and "female enough" often assumed to be comfortable to be gendered female...

[ciara@anarres.family]

@ics @SymTrkl @enbypirate oh I liked the sound of FLINTA in theory but not if it excludes any of my enby friends 🫂

[enbypirate@lgbtqia.space]

@ciara @ics @SymTrkl theoretically it doesn't, but I know a lot AMAB enbys (including me) who don't feel welcome in FLINTA spaces

[doppelgrau@anarres.family]

@ciara @ics @SymTrkl @enbypirate Also often ~half of the inter and asexual people and of course our trans brothers.
In theory good, in reality you have to check for other signs....

[enbypirate@lgbtqia.space]

@doppelgrau @ciara @ics @SymTrkl and there is quite much critique from trans-men who feel that including them means that they're not seen as real men

[doppelgrau@anarres.family]

@enbypirate @ciara @ics @SymTrkl And from what I heard often even worse, not only that the "FL" part is so dominant, but also the organizers assume all people attending are fine being gendered female => trans masc people are misgendered in the worst way then.

[enbypirate@lgbtqia.space]

@doppelgrau @ciara @ics @SymTrkl to quote a very good (also AMAB and super gay) friend of mine: FLINTA is just a cool way to say "woman"

[ciara@anarres.family]

@enbypirate @doppelgrau @ics @SymTrkl eww it really does sound that way

[enbypirate@lgbtqia.space]

@ciara @doppelgrau @ics @SymTrkl even though I can imagine that people are doing the stuff that Ellejay described, I don't know any FLINTA only spaces or people who assume everyone has she/her as pronouns.

[emmeline@hoosier.social]

@enbypirate in America, the oppression against the community is so bad that pretty much any trans friendly space is open to any member of the community, no questions asked. These spaces often have to serve multiple social groups to survive financially. For example, the most famous trans friendly bar in Minnesota operates as a soccer bar in daytime hours to keep the lights on.

[derginko@mastodon.social]

@enbypirate I Write as a non trans women, I would find it difficult to my trans masc friend (who is good in passing) to go there and one makes assumptions about the femininity of him. It seems like an outing.
But that’s just my perspective @doppelgrau @ciara @ics @SymTrkl

[shadesofgrease@lgbtqia.space]

@enbypirate I am not comfortable with that term at all. I understand it only has one meaning and purpose, excluding cis men. Where is the logic in that?

1st everyone of the included groups can be an asshole, too

2nd if trans whatever are whatever, there should be no need to mention T at all

[ics@tau-ceti.space]

@DerGinko @enbypirate @doppelgrau @ciara @SymTrkl That's the problem I think, not necessarily that including trans men is problematic (because there is the "T" in there) but rather that those spaces are so feminine-coded that they wouldn't feel accepted. Look, even for me, who most of the time presents femme-to-butch those spaces are problematic because I feel they erase my non-binary and genderfluid identity

[ciara@anarres.family]

@ics
Yes I agree 100%. It doesn’t matter how it’s described, if people who should be welcome don’t feel accepted then it’s not as inclusive as claimed. It’s a shame because it sounded like a group I would enjoy being part of if it was like I thought it was

@DerGinko @enbypirate @doppelgrau @SymTrkl

[symtrkl@anarres.family]

@ciara @ics Yeah, same. If I wanted a femme-only space that felt hostile to other queers, there are plenty of fedi instances full of tirfs I could already be on.
@DerGinko @enbypirate @doppelgrau

[emmeline@hoosier.social]

@shadesofgrease In American spaces this kind of discrimination wouldn’t be tolerated and any space that attempts to practice it would be blacklisted by large segments of the community. I don’t know how this works in Europe but the politics of this nation doesn’t allow spaces to police like this.

[schlupf@kinkycats.org]

@enbypirate is the "L" in FLINTA redundant or not?