Speaking as a parent my current opinion on internet age verification laws is that after the state starts putting the Epstein class in prison en masse then maybe we can start taking anything else they say about protecting children seriously.
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@paranormal_distribution @mhoye Certainly correlation and causation are hard to distinguish. And doing experimental studies forcing someone into social media use is morally questionable. However some of the higher quality studies have studied the inverse, the -improvement- in mental health from social media 'detoxes'. Just a random selection:
- https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35512731/
- https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/41294782/
- https://www.mdpi.com/2076-328X/13/12/1004
- https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2023/06/230614220707.htm@Schouten_B @mhoye I found this meta-analysis of 60 peer-reviewed studies, and the results look pretty heterogenous. There clearly isn't a scientific consensus on this, so I don't think we know enough to legislate it. If child protection is the actual goal.
Link: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2590291125005212 -
@Schouten_B @mhoye I found this meta-analysis of 60 peer-reviewed studies, and the results look pretty heterogenous. There clearly isn't a scientific consensus on this, so I don't think we know enough to legislate it. If child protection is the actual goal.
Link: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2590291125005212@paranormal_distribution @mhoye Many of the studies cited here are observational, rather than experimental. I'd say the most important studies to look at when thinking about policy decisions are probably experimental. Also many of these studies don't focus on young people, and particularly not on young women where the most significant mental health decline is observed.
If you focus on those studies you get a much more homogeneous result. This meta-analysis is rather broad.
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@paranormal_distribution @mhoye Many of the studies cited here are observational, rather than experimental. I'd say the most important studies to look at when thinking about policy decisions are probably experimental. Also many of these studies don't focus on young people, and particularly not on young women where the most significant mental health decline is observed.
If you focus on those studies you get a much more homogeneous result. This meta-analysis is rather broad.
@paranormal_distribution @mhoye (And digging into some of the things in the PC1 'positive outcomes' section, aren't even describing net positive outcomes, they're really not even studies at all, an example is this one, https://www.mdpi.com/2254-9625/13/6/78 it is in itself a qualitative reading of a selection of papers.
But to be clear, even in somewhat more focused areas there -do- exist meta-analysis which give mixed results: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/40038410/)
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@paranormal_distribution @mhoye (And digging into some of the things in the PC1 'positive outcomes' section, aren't even describing net positive outcomes, they're really not even studies at all, an example is this one, https://www.mdpi.com/2254-9625/13/6/78 it is in itself a qualitative reading of a selection of papers.
But to be clear, even in somewhat more focused areas there -do- exist meta-analysis which give mixed results: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/40038410/)
@Schouten_B @mhoye Imo, the scientific basis for a ban is weak. If we imagine that this was the meta analysis of studies on a drug, I probably wouldn't want to take it.
I'm not against an age limit per se if a clearer scientific consensus emerges, and the technical solutions are actually privacy preserving. I do have to admit that I'm biased, since I was once a young woman on social media, and it helped me tremendously.
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@Schouten_B @mhoye Imo, the scientific basis for a ban is weak. If we imagine that this was the meta analysis of studies on a drug, I probably wouldn't want to take it.
I'm not against an age limit per se if a clearer scientific consensus emerges, and the technical solutions are actually privacy preserving. I do have to admit that I'm biased, since I was once a young woman on social media, and it helped me tremendously.
@paranormal_distribution @mhoye n=1 obviously. Although I'm happy for you.
I, fortunately, grew up in an age without social media. I'd encourage you to delve more into the studies that have been done, the results are quite interesting.
Personally I'm in particular not sure an age limit will be affective. Then again, I'm also still skeptical of us raising the drinking age from 16 to 18. And I do believe drinking is probably bad for you in some way :p. (Although it helped me tremendously :-))
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@paranormal_distribution @mhoye n=1 obviously. Although I'm happy for you.
I, fortunately, grew up in an age without social media. I'd encourage you to delve more into the studies that have been done, the results are quite interesting.
Personally I'm in particular not sure an age limit will be affective. Then again, I'm also still skeptical of us raising the drinking age from 16 to 18. And I do believe drinking is probably bad for you in some way :p. (Although it helped me tremendously :-))
@Schouten_B @mhoye Don't mind me, I've just been drilled hard to always report sources of bias ..
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@Schouten_B @mhoye Don't mind me, I've just been drilled hard to always report sources of bias ..
@paranormal_distribution @mhoye It's good to be aware of our biases. I live almost entirely without social media (this is probably the most I've posted in months :P), and am in outstanding mental health compared to many of my peers who easily spend 2-3 hours a day on social media and their phones. That certainly creates bias.
Similarly I drink a lot, and I find whenever studies show negative effects of alcohol consumption I approach them with much more skepticism then when they are positive.
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@confuseacat @mhoye Really? Any more than the Catholic church child abuse crisis. The wide-spread abuse of Canadian Indian children, i.e. countless abuses that have been happening in the open for centuries? I don't really see anything new or shocking in the Epstein case. Some powerful people, from Diddy to JFK and Chaplin, to the 'casting couch culture' in Hollywood have always abused their power to take advantage of young people.
@Schouten_B @mhoye Ah! Ok! Now I get your point. And it's a very good point. Still a very depressing situation, though.
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@paranormal_distribution @mhoye It's good to be aware of our biases. I live almost entirely without social media (this is probably the most I've posted in months :P), and am in outstanding mental health compared to many of my peers who easily spend 2-3 hours a day on social media and their phones. That certainly creates bias.
Similarly I drink a lot, and I find whenever studies show negative effects of alcohol consumption I approach them with much more skepticism then when they are positive.
@paranormal_distribution @mhoye (Fwiw, I do think the scientific consensus on what to do needs to hurry, one thing there is -really- broad consensus on is that mental health among all groups of young people has regressed tremendously in the last 10-15 years, and that's extremely concerning and feels like it requires us to do *something* (tm))
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Speaking as a parent my current opinion on internet age verification laws is that after the state starts putting the Epstein class in prison en masse then maybe we can start taking anything else they say about protecting children seriously.
@mhoye Let alone delegating the parental task of regulating children's online use of devices to the Epstein class: which is what online #ageVerification, in effect, amounts to doing.
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@mhoye To be completely honest. My take here is that creeps like Epstein have been around for 100s of years. Be it in churches or a variety of other institutions.
The mental health of young people (and beyond, to some extent, but let's stick to young people for now), by any objective standard that I am aware of, has taken an incredible plunge since the age of social media.
@Schouten_B@mastodon.social @mhoye@cosocial.ca
The mental health of young people (and beyond, to some extent, but let's stick to young people for now)
Whoah, you can't just admit that the entire premise your support for censorship laws is a lie and then brush it aside!
The way you treat teenagers is the way you would treat adults if you thought you could get away with it. -
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