How would the world be different today if the US had stayed out of the Vietnam War?
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@futurebird Just curious, but do you know about the show M.A.S.H.? (I have to ask because it stopped airing before most of us were born, lol.)
It's mostly comedy (with a few serious moments mixed in once in a while) and it's from the doctors' point of view, so you don' actually get the stuff you're really looking for there, but it does give an interesting perspective on at least some things perhaps.
Or perhaps not. Obviously it was meant to be taken with a grain of salt then and now.
Yes. Of course I know about MASH. It was a bit of propaganda to help the public deal with "our boys" being over there since obviously you can't lie about how badly it was going for them when they don't come home or are missing a leg or did war crimes and now can't sleep with the light off anymore.
We messed up a lot of young men forever. Which is less of a crime than all the civilians that died but still a crime.
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What does a typical US high school education teach about this war?
"The US went to Vietnam to save people from Communism, but it got messy and maybe it wasn't worth it."
That's about it. This must be... not even close to the whole story.
A lot of people including a significant chunk of American soldiers died in this war. When it started the US public supported it. By the time it ended most people didn't, though feelings are "complex."
@futurebird Iirc it started with the French being pretty vicious in Indochine, getting a drubbing, [stuff...] USA gets involved.
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I you are horrified that I'm a dumb American who doesn't know history I want to warn you that I'm considered a wonky history nerd in most circles (totally unearned) and most people in the US know much much much less than I do.
Anyway. Time to learn again.
@futurebird Without real context, History was difficult for me to grasp. Now that I'm learning context, I'm seeking out, understanding, and remembering more.
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Yes. Of course I know about MASH. It was a bit of propaganda to help the public deal with "our boys" being over there since obviously you can't lie about how badly it was going for them when they don't come home or are missing a leg or did war crimes and now can't sleep with the light off anymore.
We messed up a lot of young men forever. Which is less of a crime than all the civilians that died but still a crime.
@futurebird Propaganda? Are we talking about the same show? The main character spends an awful lot of time directly stating that they're getting kids killed for nothing. Unless I guess you mean like a reverse kneejerk counter-reaction to just him saying it too much or something?
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@futurebird Without real context, History was difficult for me to grasp. Now that I'm learning context, I'm seeking out, understanding, and remembering more.
Yeah, I hated history class because it made no damn sense. Learning as an adult I now find it really interesting. Because the events of the past do make sense, it's just US history as taught in school leaves so much out, contains so many white lies that it's hard to even follow.
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I you are horrified that I'm a dumb American who doesn't know history I want to warn you that I'm considered a wonky history nerd in most circles (totally unearned) and most people in the US know much much much less than I do.
Anyway. Time to learn again.
@futurebird That's what makes you not dumb. You understand you don't know anything, and then learn more about things that interest you.
I do not understand people who aren't constantly searching and learning new things. It's all so interesting!
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@futurebird Without real context, History was difficult for me to grasp. Now that I'm learning context, I'm seeking out, understanding, and remembering more.
@roknrol @futurebird For me growing up, I learned a LOT about Vietnam, which was my father's war, because I lived through the time when they finally made a bunch of movies about it. Not Apocalypse Now (panned by my Dad) but Platoon, and Hamburger Hill and a few others. But we also are of the generation that had units on it in college, and it's because so many of us had parents who were involved. There is also a big legacy of personal accounts that have been made into books about the war.
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Yeah, I hated history class because it made no damn sense. Learning as an adult I now find it really interesting. Because the events of the past do make sense, it's just US history as taught in school leaves so much out, contains so many white lies that it's hard to even follow.
"But, Mr. Block why would the the USSR put nuclear missiles in Cuba? They had to know the US would be frightened and angry about that?"
"Well they just wanted the whole world to be communist. They really thought communism would work. We don't have time to dwell on this there are six more units we need to complete before the AP* exam."
*AP stands for "Advanced Placement" I was in a 'advanced' history course and I earned an A! My head is empty nonetheless.
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@roknrol @futurebird For me growing up, I learned a LOT about Vietnam, which was my father's war, because I lived through the time when they finally made a bunch of movies about it. Not Apocalypse Now (panned by my Dad) but Platoon, and Hamburger Hill and a few others. But we also are of the generation that had units on it in college, and it's because so many of us had parents who were involved. There is also a big legacy of personal accounts that have been made into books about the war.
@roknrol @futurebird Like "Flight of the Intruder"
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Yeah, I hated history class because it made no damn sense. Learning as an adult I now find it really interesting. Because the events of the past do make sense, it's just US history as taught in school leaves so much out, contains so many white lies that it's hard to even follow.
This was one of the things that history in UK schools (at least, mine) did pretty well. Covering the domino theory, why people in the US believed it, why they got involved, why their tactics failed, the war crimes, and so on.
It’s probably easier to teach something like that from an outside perspective. Even trying to avoid it, there was a lot of implicit jingoism in how we were taught about the world wars.
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How would the world be different today if the US had stayed out of the Vietnam War?
I know very little about this war and wouldn't mind maybe reading a book about it. But I don't know where to start. I'd love something that added context without pushing a political agenda. So I don't want an anti-communist book, or really even an explicitly ani-capitalist one. I'd like to think I could understand the power vectors and their impact on ordinary people. This is hard to do!
@futurebird This should *not* be the only book you read, but this tells part of the story. (And yes, this is Max Boot, but he does a pretty good job with military history.)
Tagging @PhoenixSerenity who is far more knowledgeable.
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@roknrol @futurebird Like "Flight of the Intruder"
@roknrol @futurebird The "best" material I have found on Vietnam is on Youtube: videos of broadcast news reports made by reporters actually stationed with American troops going into Vietnamese villages, but that was censored from the evening news at the time.
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"But, Mr. Block why would the the USSR put nuclear missiles in Cuba? They had to know the US would be frightened and angry about that?"
"Well they just wanted the whole world to be communist. They really thought communism would work. We don't have time to dwell on this there are six more units we need to complete before the AP* exam."
*AP stands for "Advanced Placement" I was in a 'advanced' history course and I earned an A! My head is empty nonetheless.
@futurebird @roknrol Curricula love to leave out the part where the US had nuclear missiles in Turkey
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I you are horrified that I'm a dumb American who doesn't know history I want to warn you that I'm considered a wonky history nerd in most circles (totally unearned) and most people in the US know much much much less than I do.
Anyway. Time to learn again.
@futurebird USAmericans not learning about their imperialist, anti-communist wars is like Spaniard's not learning about the Spanish Civil War: something by design, because the people who benefited from it do not want most people to understand and learn from it.
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What does a typical US high school education teach about this war?
"The US went to Vietnam to save people from Communism, but it got messy and maybe it wasn't worth it."
That's about it. This must be... not even close to the whole story.
A lot of people including a significant chunk of American soldiers died in this war. When it started the US public supported it. By the time it ended most people didn't, though feelings are "complex."
@futurebird Honestly I don't think that's far off, I mean we had the Red Scare in the early 50's, the Korean War was largely about stopping the commies (unsuccessfully), and Vietnam was basically Korean War II. There was a real belief that in the domino theory, if one country became communist, then another would and another and another until the entire world was part of the USSR (this is actually shown in the pilot episode of Sliders). It really was one of the stupidest US wars with no real value to it beyond that. -
"But, Mr. Block why would the the USSR put nuclear missiles in Cuba? They had to know the US would be frightened and angry about that?"
"Well they just wanted the whole world to be communist. They really thought communism would work. We don't have time to dwell on this there are six more units we need to complete before the AP* exam."
*AP stands for "Advanced Placement" I was in a 'advanced' history course and I earned an A! My head is empty nonetheless.
@futurebird@sauropods.wi Low-effort snark, but: “History is anything the ruling elite want memory-holed. Everything else is propaganda.”
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@roknrol @futurebird The "best" material I have found on Vietnam is on Youtube: videos of broadcast news reports made by reporters actually stationed with American troops going into Vietnamese villages, but that was censored from the evening news at the time.
@roknrol @futurebird One of the most compelling histories I have read was an account by a guy who was a Huey pilot and did all the troop transport missions into and out of combat, and how they would land the helicopters in the river so that the water would wash the blood out the doors. There's stuff like that that you will never get from a history book.
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@roknrol @futurebird One of the most compelling histories I have read was an account by a guy who was a Huey pilot and did all the troop transport missions into and out of combat, and how they would land the helicopters in the river so that the water would wash the blood out the doors. There's stuff like that that you will never get from a history book.
I think I have a decent understanding of how the war progressed once it started. But I don't really get why it started.
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@roknrol @futurebird One of the most compelling histories I have read was an account by a guy who was a Huey pilot and did all the troop transport missions into and out of combat, and how they would land the helicopters in the river so that the water would wash the blood out the doors. There's stuff like that that you will never get from a history book.
@roknrol @futurebird I also found the personal history of @PhoenixSerenity to be compelling, I had never heard the story from the Vietnamese side, and about what happened immediately after American withdrawal, her story of her parents war was extremely illuminating.
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"But, Mr. Block why would the the USSR put nuclear missiles in Cuba? They had to know the US would be frightened and angry about that?"
"Well they just wanted the whole world to be communist. They really thought communism would work. We don't have time to dwell on this there are six more units we need to complete before the AP* exam."
*AP stands for "Advanced Placement" I was in a 'advanced' history course and I earned an A! My head is empty nonetheless.
There’s always a lot of context that’s implicit even to the people writing history. For example, consider Irish and English history. There’s a common narrative that Ireland was oppressed by the English, and there’s a lot of evidence to support that implicitly nationalist telling.
But there’s another story that the Normans (Norse folks who had settled in Northern France) invaded England and installed themselves as a new aristocracy. After about a hundred years, they’d run out of land to give to their friends and so conquered Ireland as well and installed themselves as an aristocracy there. They then continued to oppress both countries, Ireland more so than England. When the Irish rebelled, they recruited English regiments (from people whose other option was usually starvation) to kill the rebels. The classist narrative also has a lot of evidence to support it.
