Americans really got bored with free trade, the best and brightest in the world wanting to come here, low corruption and childhood diseases like measles being eradicated.
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@carnage4life so there were no problems in America to address? This system was working well for all Americans? https://infosec.exchange/@codinghorror/116098902726924703
@codinghorror @carnage4life The two are related: we are here in large part because none of this prosperity was spent on healthcare, justice or education. All it did was increase inequality.
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@carnage4life historians would be idiots if they thought that. A bevy of hugely corrupt and absurdly wealthy Americans (plus a notable Australian and a notable South African) generated a ton of propaganda, gradually consolidated power, and really ruined things for everyone else.
@sneako @carnage4life Also yes, but people's acceptance of that is in part because they don't have the generational memory of how bad things can be.
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@carnage4life the screaming privilege displayed by people like Jay: the prosperity is not shared. Economic precariousness is high, literally one serious illness away from bankruptcy.
@allsumnull @carnage4life And yet folks still are well off enough that they are isolated from the political process.
That's the point and the problem: too many people think that politics doesn't effect them. And they're able to do that because at some level, things are good enough.The counter argument here is that that's the politicians fault for not being engaging, or the oligarchs fault for distracting with bread and circuses, but the fact remains that people aren't hurting enough to engage
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@codinghorror @carnage4life The two are related: we are here in large part because none of this prosperity was spent on healthcare, justice or education. All it did was increase inequality.
@mikesax @carnage4life so let’s fix that, then
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@codinghorror Are things better now?
@carnage4life and a highly polarized two party system is the worst form of democracy, so… https://infosec.exchange/@codinghorror/116104218445674780
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@codinghorror @carnage4life That’s not the argument being made and is, frankly (and respectfully), a red herring.
Of course problems exist and always would under any system. Many of those problems had workable solutions to alleviate a substantive portion of it, but the electorate, politicians, and corporate interests largely saw to stymie that at various points.
Under the direction we’re currently speed running, good luck getting those solutions through.
@DigitalPatch @carnage4life respectfully disagree, see https://infosec.exchange/@codinghorror/116056668112430977
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@DigitalPatch @carnage4life respectfully disagree, see https://infosec.exchange/@codinghorror/116056668112430977
@DigitalPatch @carnage4life you guys wanna argue with the scholars, go for it, meanwhile we are doing something about it right NOW https://infosec.exchange/@codinghorror/116032070438731854
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@DigitalPatch @carnage4life you guys wanna argue with the scholars, go for it, meanwhile we are doing something about it right NOW https://infosec.exchange/@codinghorror/116032070438731854
@codinghorror @carnage4life Familiar with your commendable initiative, but I guess I'm not following your argument. The Constitution is comically rigid and partisanship -- especially on the right -- is one of a perpetual, ideological/cultural war trying to rollback the progress of the 70s, 30s, etc.
Those seem like side points to the original post IMO.
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@codinghorror @carnage4life Familiar with your commendable initiative, but I guess I'm not following your argument. The Constitution is comically rigid and partisanship -- especially on the right -- is one of a perpetual, ideological/cultural war trying to rollback the progress of the 70s, 30s, etc.
Those seem like side points to the original post IMO.
@codinghorror @carnage4life If the gist of the counterargument is that the broadly stable, prosperous, & free order we were under before didn't benefit everyone -- sure.
But those same people would very likely be even worse off under a less stable, less prosperous, & arbitrary order in this country. A lot of us have family that lives in such places & there's a reason subset of those people would love to emigrate to a US of the previous era, if given the opportunity in spite of the challenges.
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@codinghorror @carnage4life If the gist of the counterargument is that the broadly stable, prosperous, & free order we were under before didn't benefit everyone -- sure.
But those same people would very likely be even worse off under a less stable, less prosperous, & arbitrary order in this country. A lot of us have family that lives in such places & there's a reason subset of those people would love to emigrate to a US of the previous era, if given the opportunity in spite of the challenges.
@DigitalPatch @carnage4life buried lede. New country time. There is precedent. See map in my earlier post the magic number is not 2 but 3.
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@codinghorror @DigitalPatch @carnage4life This is light on actual mechanics. Federal taxes are collected directly by the Federal government, and you personally face prosecution if you withhold them.
How do you convince every taxpayer in the state to simultaneously commit tax evasion?
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@carnage4life and a highly polarized two party system is the worst form of democracy, so… https://infosec.exchange/@codinghorror/116104218445674780
@codinghorror @carnage4life You do *not* have a polarized two-party system. You have one boring middle:of-the-spectrum party and a corrupt lying cheating fascist-adjacent ultra-extremist party. The problem is unipolar.
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@codinghorror @carnage4life You do *not* have a polarized two-party system. You have one boring middle:of-the-spectrum party and a corrupt lying cheating fascist-adjacent ultra-extremist party. The problem is unipolar.
@codinghorror @carnage4life I forgot to mention racist and misogynist.
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@carnage4life so there were no problems in America to address? This system was working well for all Americans? https://infosec.exchange/@codinghorror/116098902726924703
@codinghorror @carnage4life There are definitely problems in the US. Neither party will address it because it means doing something about income inequality and get wealthy people paying their fair share.
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@jgg @timbray @codinghorror @carnage4life it’s not even that people will pick the outsider just to try something different but a lot of people just give up and don’t bother.
One day hopefully the democrats realize that the strategy of ‘you don’t have a choice but to vote for us’ isn’t inspiring or even democratic.
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@allsumnull @carnage4life And yet folks still are well off enough that they are isolated from the political process.
That's the point and the problem: too many people think that politics doesn't effect them. And they're able to do that because at some level, things are good enough.The counter argument here is that that's the politicians fault for not being engaging, or the oligarchs fault for distracting with bread and circuses, but the fact remains that people aren't hurting enough to engage
@qkslvrwolf @carnage4life or perhaps they feel there is no point engaging. That the process is rigged, and largely serves political donors, and they might be justified in thinking so.
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@qkslvrwolf @carnage4life or perhaps they feel there is no point engaging. That the process is rigged, and largely serves political donors, and they might be justified in thinking so.
@allsumnull @carnage4life Blah blah blah that means "they" are comfy enough you don't understand what we all have to lose.
This kinda bullshit is exactly the point carnage4life made.
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@jgg @timbray @carnage4life I agree with this and the people talking to the actual folks affected knew with 80% certainty the baseball bat was coming. Email me if you want specific citations and details. I have them all.
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@codinghorror @carnage4life There are definitely problems in the US. Neither party will address it because it means doing something about income inequality and get wealthy people paying their fair share.
@fds @carnage4life I'm working on a few things that will help that I can't quite talk about yet. On top of what is visible.
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@codinghorror @carnage4life I forgot to mention racist and misogynist.
@timbray @carnage4life I agree but scholars disagree with you on this point (that we don't have a wildly polarized two party system). That's .. demonstrably untrue. Email me for all the citations. They are in my timeline, too. Either way. Doesn't matter.
