An American colleague just walked into our very international research office and announced that her brother in Tacoma had just watched a crowd surround an ICE vehicle so it couldn't move, shake it till the agent got out and then beat him up.
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@troglobit I'm pretty strongly antiviolence, but in this instance I believe that harming the ICE agent will have prevented the greater amount of harm that would have occurred to others if they had been allowed to do their duty unimpeded. If i'd been there I wouldn't have hurt them myself, i would probably even have tried to stop others harming them, but I'm honestly not going to lose sleep over someone setting out to hurt others being prevented from doing so by being hurt.
@afewbugs completely understand that, just take a step back and look at the phrasing of your original post. In all communication we have to be careful in what we put out there. Take care!
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@troglobit @afewbugs You object to beating up ICE agents? Would you also have objected to beating up slavers? Camp guards?
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@afewbugs so let me start by saying I'm not pro any of the horrors that are happening in the US right now, but you're "cheering" to someone being beat up, right? Sorry, but that's where I draw my line.
Block them, sure
Object them, absolutely
Protest them, everywhere!Beat them up? Yeah no.
@troglobit @afewbugs we didn't stop the Nazis by “blocking”, “objecting” or “protesting”. We stopped them by shooting them dead. And apparently they need a recall of the lesson.
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@troglobit @viccie30 I will also come back in and say that while I don't know the motivations of the crowd and everyone individual's would have been different, I don't think the point of beating the agent up was necessarily retribution as punishment for his actions, I would imagine (and again I wasn't there and heard all this 3rd hand) the motivation seemed to me to be threats as prevention of future harms, making agents afraid that if they attacked people they would be attacked back. I can understand why people may feel such threats are the only ways of protecting themselves and their neighbours remaining to them when the mechanisms of state turn against them
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@troglobit @afewbugs we didn't stop the Nazis by “blocking”, “objecting” or “protesting”. We stopped them by shooting them dead. And apparently they need a recall of the lesson.
@oblomov not the exact same situation though, is it? In your case it's within the same nation, so nation laws apply. In the case of Nazis vs the rest of the world we hadn't even established the Geneva convention. But sure, you just want to make a point, and I'm with you. Let's just say I'm in the back of the crowd saying; Maybe don't bust them up so we'll be the ones being accused of any wrongdoing. @afewbugs
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@troglobit @viccie30 I will also come back in and say that while I don't know the motivations of the crowd and everyone individual's would have been different, I don't think the point of beating the agent up was necessarily retribution as punishment for his actions, I would imagine (and again I wasn't there and heard all this 3rd hand) the motivation seemed to me to be threats as prevention of future harms, making agents afraid that if they attacked people they would be attacked back. I can understand why people may feel such threats are the only ways of protecting themselves and their neighbours remaining to them when the mechanisms of state turn against them
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@troglobit @viccie30 I will also come back in and say that while I don't know the motivations of the crowd and everyone individual's would have been different, I don't think the point of beating the agent up was necessarily retribution as punishment for his actions, I would imagine (and again I wasn't there and heard all this 3rd hand) the motivation seemed to me to be threats as prevention of future harms, making agents afraid that if they attacked people they would be attacked back. I can understand why people may feel such threats are the only ways of protecting themselves and their neighbours remaining to them when the mechanisms of state turn against them
@troglobit @viccie30 the perspective I'm coming at this from is that many years ago when I was an attractive young woman, as I was getting into a car a man grabbed my shoulder and tried to pull me out. I acted on instinct, slammed the door on his arm and broke it. And I actually felt incredibly guilty about the fact I'd hurt him so badly for years, until multiple people managed to convince me that if he had managed to pull me out of the car, the amount of harm he would probably have done to me would probably have been worse than a broken arm and hopefully being hurt like that made him think twice about trying something like that again. Substitute "man pulling women out of cars" for ICE agent and me for random Americans - I don't go round deliberately looking to break men's arms, but doing so probably prevented harm in the long run.
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@oblomov not the exact same situation though, is it? In your case it's within the same nation, so nation laws apply. In the case of Nazis vs the rest of the world we hadn't even established the Geneva convention. But sure, you just want to make a point, and I'm with you. Let's just say I'm in the back of the crowd saying; Maybe don't bust them up so we'll be the ones being accused of any wrongdoing. @afewbugs
@troglobit @afewbugs even the Nazis within the same nation applied their nation laws. That's hardly a reason to not stop them when the path they've taken is obvious, *especially* since we know how these things evolve, assuming that could be considered a reason to not stop them early in 1930s («ah but we didn't know it'd be that bad»; well, now we do).
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@troglobit @viccie30 the perspective I'm coming at this from is that many years ago when I was an attractive young woman, as I was getting into a car a man grabbed my shoulder and tried to pull me out. I acted on instinct, slammed the door on his arm and broke it. And I actually felt incredibly guilty about the fact I'd hurt him so badly for years, until multiple people managed to convince me that if he had managed to pull me out of the car, the amount of harm he would probably have done to me would probably have been worse than a broken arm and hopefully being hurt like that made him think twice about trying something like that again. Substitute "man pulling women out of cars" for ICE agent and me for random Americans - I don't go round deliberately looking to break men's arms, but doing so probably prevented harm in the long run.
@afewbugs this is an appalling story and I mean not to belittle you in any way, but they are different in that of individual vs. state. Sure, the individuals representing the state may definitely deserve a beating up, but when we communicate is the best way of reaching other people really violence?
@viccie30 -
@troglobit @afewbugs ICE *is* (part of) the legal arm of the USA. The Gestapo *was* part of the legal arm of Germany, Nelson Mandela was locked up *by* the legal arm of South Africa, Palestine Action supporters *are* locked up by the legal arm of the British government.
The USA is not a democracy, let alone one worth its salt. -
@troglobit @afewbugs even the Nazis within the same nation applied their nation laws. That's hardly a reason to not stop them when the path they've taken is obvious, *especially* since we know how these things evolve, assuming that could be considered a reason to not stop them early in 1930s («ah but we didn't know it'd be that bad»; well, now we do).
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@afewbugs this is an appalling story and I mean not to belittle you in any way, but they are different in that of individual vs. state. Sure, the individuals representing the state may definitely deserve a beating up, but when we communicate is the best way of reaching other people really violence?
@viccie30@troglobit @afewbugs ICE is committing violence, killing people, either on the street or by dragging them to concentration camps. I don't like violence, but how do you stop armed terrorists?
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@troglobit @afewbugs ICE *is* (part of) the legal arm of the USA. The Gestapo *was* part of the legal arm of Germany, Nelson Mandela was locked up *by* the legal arm of South Africa, Palestine Action supporters *are* locked up by the legal arm of the British government.
The USA is not a democracy, let alone one worth its salt. -
@troglobit @afewbugs ICE is grabbing people off the streets left and right just for standing there. How on earth are you going to protect people from that if you can't fight back? Ask nicely? Offer them a can of Pepsi?
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@troglobit @afewbugs ICE is grabbing people off the streets left and right just for standing there. How on earth are you going to protect people from that if you can't fight back? Ask nicely? Offer them a can of Pepsi?
@viccie30 I'm sorry, but what in what I just wrote makes it that I am for anything that ICE is doing? Admittedly I'm not very good at English, so please tell me where I lapsed so I can better myself. But honestly, it seems you're just desperate to win an argument that isn't there.
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@viccie30 I'm sorry, but what in what I just wrote makes it that I am for anything that ICE is doing? Admittedly I'm not very good at English, so please tell me where I lapsed so I can better myself. But honestly, it seems you're just desperate to win an argument that isn't there.
@troglobit You wrote "... all in protecting our own against incarceration." I interpreted that as meaning that you are against the use of violence, so that innocent people don't get arrested.
I hadn't interpreted that as support for ICE, but it did make me wonder how you *would* protect innocent people from arrest.
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@rakoo not proposing anything other than self restraint. If you oppose the system in which you live and act, that's what you'll have to answer to. I'm not justifying it, just saying I'm opposed to violence. If you want to do harm to other people to protect yourself or your beliefs, that's on you. @viccie30 @afewbugs
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