677: I Accept the Battery Costhttps://atp.fm/677
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@Bachus Though I didn’t say that and I don’t believe that, I do think AI will turn out differently than crypto and NFTs. Don’t you?
@siracusa That's a direct quote from Marco. And no, I don't.
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@atpfm
Also: "we discuss the downsides and negatives"When exactly? It's been months of nothing but Marco pushing OpenAI chatbots or John pushing Claude etc. Gonna discuss any of the lawsuits against OpenAI or vibecoding killing open source, or continuing environmental destruction, or nah?
OpenAI faces 7 lawsuits claiming ChatGPT drove people to suicide, delusions
OpenAI is facing seven lawsuits claiming ChatGPT drove people to suicide and harmful delusions even when they had no prior mental health issues.
AP News (apnews.com)
Vibe Coding Is Killing Open Source Software, Researchers Argue
‘If the maintainers of small projects give up, who will produce the next Linux?’
404 Media (www.404media.co)
Overrun with AI slop, cURL scraps bug bounties to ensure "intact mental health"
The onslaught includes LLMs finding bogus vulnerabilities and code that won't compile.
Ars Technica (arstechnica.com)
@Bachus After a quick search, here are three links to older episodes that cover some of those topics. (See the links in the show notes.) I'm sure there are more.
Accidental Tech Podcast: 658: Your First Mistake Phone
Three nerds discussing tech, Apple, programming, and loosely related matters.
(atp.fm)
Accidental Tech Podcast: 645: More Frosting
Three nerds discussing tech, Apple, programming, and loosely related matters.
(atp.fm)
Accidental Tech Podcast: 594: We Just Found It on the Doorstep
Three nerds discussing tech, Apple, programming, and loosely related matters.
(atp.fm)
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@siracusa That's a direct quote from Marco. And no, I don't.
@Bachus I'm not Marco.
Also, I would take that bet on crypto and NFTs. I think AI will prove to be both more widely used and more useful than both of those things combined (even if you consider crime as a valid use case for crypto).
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@atpfm
Also: "we discuss the downsides and negatives"When exactly? It's been months of nothing but Marco pushing OpenAI chatbots or John pushing Claude etc. Gonna discuss any of the lawsuits against OpenAI or vibecoding killing open source, or continuing environmental destruction, or nah?
OpenAI faces 7 lawsuits claiming ChatGPT drove people to suicide, delusions
OpenAI is facing seven lawsuits claiming ChatGPT drove people to suicide and harmful delusions even when they had no prior mental health issues.
AP News (apnews.com)
Vibe Coding Is Killing Open Source Software, Researchers Argue
‘If the maintainers of small projects give up, who will produce the next Linux?’
404 Media (www.404media.co)
Overrun with AI slop, cURL scraps bug bounties to ensure "intact mental health"
The onslaught includes LLMs finding bogus vulnerabilities and code that won't compile.
Ars Technica (arstechnica.com)
@Bachus @atpfm I think I'm one of the few people that if I could press a button to make AI never happen I would, especially considering it's current uses seem to take away from humanity. (this might be a bit extreme though considering potential help in medicine etc.)
But even then it's crazy to ignore it's usefulness. It's honestly insane how good at is at lots of things. Just take math and computer science for example. It is big, will be bigger, the only question is how useful / big.
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@atpfm Always her for team fahrenheit.
️It's good to use the browser that works best for you so not shame there. I'm forced to use Chrome at work and I use Safari at home. I would say my experience is largely the opposite.
However, I’m using content blockers. Is it a slight cheat removing the problem? Maybe, but I wouldn't call the Chrome experience on an ad heavy website great but even if was, so much of the web is ugly and hard to read with the ads. I just would choose to avoid the web tbh
@fds @atpfm I’m always here for the fahrenheit rant
I don’t think anyone is working on taking it away from @caseyliss - we can have both
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@DanEngler @atpfm With Apple turning rotten, Android here we come
I do wonder how the future will look just a few years from now?
From killing open source (https://www.404media.co/vibe-coding-is-killing-open-source-software-researchers-argue/) to making it possible to offer your application on any platform without much effort. Why not offer Overcast and Callsheet on Android, etc.?
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@USBTypeSTeve Estimating AI water usage is not straightforward https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_c6MWk7PQc But if/when we do enter a "water crisis" (really the "world's first"?) I'm currently inclined to blame climate change (and politics) rather than AI.
@siracusa @USBTypeSTeve We could start by eating less burgers: https://bryantresearch.co.uk/insight-items/comparing-water-footprint-ai/
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@vmachiel Like electricity, AI will (eventually) live or die based on the ratio of its usefulness to its harm. Crypto mining lives on because it’s useful for crime and blackmail and speculation, but it seems like it will never reach the mass market in the way that, say, smartphones have.
I think AI is already more useful than crypto, and it also has a much better use-to-harm ratio. Your opinion depends on your own estimate of those use and harm values.
@siracusa @vmachiel I think the issue with this line of thinking is that the usefulness of AI comes mostly to rich software dudes in the global North (that’s all of us in this conversation) while the harms disproportionately go to those in the global South.
As long as the harms don’t come for us, we won’t care, and when they do, it will be too late.
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@jamesnvc The only “compliance” required will be your continued use of technology products and services. Even today, there are few tech products and services that are not using ethically dubious LLMs without your knowledge or consent. That’s why I say “barely a choice” today.
@siracusa @jamesnvc you still have a choice in how much you use them though. Just because there are restaurants serving the flesh of murdered animals everywhere does not excuse anyone from “having a choice”.
I think you’re trying to move the conversation from “should we be doing this” to “let’s examine what happens as a result of us doing this”, which I totally respect as a way to move the discussion forward, but I don’t think the framing of inevitability is accurate.
(This is coming from someone who eats animal products and uses LLMs — I’m not trying to establish some moral high ground, just trying to remain somewhat objective).
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@siracusa @vmachiel Energy usage is also often overstated. Nobody is arguing that AI does not consume energy, or that aggregate demand does not add up. But this has to be evaluated in relation to the use and that it is spread across hundreds of millions of users. When broken down per individual and compared with what a typical Western European or American uses energy for, AI usage is negligible.
@secundus
I would be interested in references if you have them. I’ve been having a hell of a time finding numbers on this stuff. -
@fds @atpfm I’m always here for the fahrenheit rant
I don’t think anyone is working on taking it away from @caseyliss - we can have both -
@caseyliss @fds I’m Danish which is still European last I checked (Trump hasn’t invaded us yet
) and I will be happy to defend your right to use Fahrenheit as much as you like as long as you let me use celsius since I prefer/am used to that -
677: I Accept the Battery Cost
https://atp.fm/677If you really don’t like AI, we have some bad news for you.
@atpfm Using a web browser from the biggest advertising company in the world seems like a bad idea. Safari 4EVA.
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@marcoshuerta I agree with all of this! Uber is a similar recent example: "Lose money until we've destroyed enough of the existing market that we can start charging higher prices and customers have nowhere left to turn."
The relative timing of the bubble-pop (or even more mild "consolidation") vs. the rate at which these tools improve and we learn how to use them well will probably make a big difference in how this goes.
@siracusa Claude Code like products are one of the most token-intensive applications since massive chunks of code (and essays) are being sent into the context window over and over. That makes profitability even harder - Anthropic started charging Cursor more and Cursor had to raise prices. (and both still lose money!)
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677: I Accept the Battery Cost
https://atp.fm/677If you really don’t like AI, we have some bad news for you.
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677: I Accept the Battery Cost
https://atp.fm/677If you really don’t like AI, we have some bad news for you.
@atpfm "We don't have a choice. This is here. This is happening. It's happening with or without us…You can be a part of it or you can fall behind…You kinda have to get on board."
@marcoarment making an excellent defense of Tim Cook getting on the Trump train
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@atpfm "We don't have a choice. This is here. This is happening. It's happening with or without us…You can be a part of it or you can fall behind…You kinda have to get on board."
@marcoarment making an excellent defense of Tim Cook getting on the Trump train
@intarga This is the same defence everyone's always said, and was rebutted by John mentioning that everyone can make their own decision that aligns with their morals and values.
The argument has always been that people do not agree with Tim Cook's morals.
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677: I Accept the Battery Cost
https://atp.fm/677If you really don’t like AI, we have some bad news for you.
@atpfm Its important to note that (I don't think) XCode isn't integrating with Claude Code, just Claude. They're using Claude's LLM, but not the agent-coding-loop infra that exists in Claude Code.
this makes me believe that using Claude Code will still be 'smarter', more useful, and more modern than whatever Apple builds into XCode.
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@atpfm Its important to note that (I don't think) XCode isn't integrating with Claude Code, just Claude. They're using Claude's LLM, but not the agent-coding-loop infra that exists in Claude Code.
this makes me believe that using Claude Code will still be 'smarter', more useful, and more modern than whatever Apple builds into XCode.
Of course, the benefit will be that it'll have better GUI and integration with XCode itself.
I switch between Github Copilot and Claude Code in VS Code because I greatly prefer Copilot's IDE integration, but find Claude Code to be smarter, despite both using the same LLM models.
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@secundus
I would be interested in references if you have them. I’ve been having a hell of a time finding numbers on this stuff.@niekvdpas As far as is known, AI companies do not publish detailed data, so there are more or less plausible guesstimates. Andy Masley (see link) has written several solid articles on the topic. Granted, he is just another person on the internet, but I find his argument reasonably convincing. This is not about specific numbers, but about a rough estimate of the order of magnitude of LLM energy consumption and how that compares to overall personal energy use
Using ChatGPT is not bad for the environment - a cheat sheet
The numbers clearly show this is a pointless distraction for the climate movement
(andymasley.substack.com)
